The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Andy Freude]

But response to and appreciation of classical music varies enormously from person to person and I am not sure that “ditch the whole 06:30 to noon shambles” is a fair or reasonable position .....

That is really breathtakingly unfair. How about:- "Giving over the entire morning from 6.30 to noon to forming 'a bridge for newcomers to classical music' is not a fair or reasonable position"? Effectively, you are saying that Radio 3 (apart from the less popular slots) should be for newcomers; and devotees of classical music should pick out the few remaining programmes that suit them, on Sounds if it's inconvenient to listen to them live. But newcomers and - what? light listeners? less attentive listeners? listeners who want light entertainment rather than education? - should definitely have the whole of the morning, six days a week.

ferneyhoughgeliebte makes the point: newcomers to classical music already have Classic FM and now Scala Radio. Why should they have all the popular listening hours on Radio 3 as well because BBC managers want to get their share of the big audiences? Radio 3 mornings are well dumbed down, the excuse being that lots of people like it. Wow.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So how, given a shrinking resource, do you create/maintain the bridge or do we, in your opinion, not need or deserve one ....

Andy has already answered that one:

newcomers to classical music already have Classic FM and now Scala Radio.

... given those two already-existing options, and the fact (how many times do I have to repeat this?) the fact that there is no British broadcaster who meets the needs of listeners who require different content and presentation, then it falls to the BBC to provide it for us. Or do we, in your opinion, not need or deserve one?

[Edgy 2]

That is really breathtakingly unfair. How about:- "Giving over the entire morning from 6.30 to noon to forming 'a bridge for newcomers to classical music' is not a fair or reasonable position"? Effectively, you are saying that Radio 3 (apart from the less popular slots) should be for newcomers; and devotees of classical music should pick out the few remaining programmes that suit them, on Sounds if it's inconvenient to listen to them live. But newcomers and - what? light listeners? less attentive listeners? listeners who want light entertainment rather than education? - should definitely have the whole of the morning, six days a week.

ferneyhoughgeliebte makes the point: newcomers to classical music already have Classic FM and now Scala Radio. Why should they have all the popular listening hours on Radio 3 as well because BBC managers want to get their share of the big audiences? Radio 3 mornings are well dumbed down, the excuse being that lots of people like it. Wow.

That’s what I now do.
On the odd occasions I stumble upon breakfast,essential classics or in tune (for a few seconds) I honestly can’t tell the difference between them and Classic FM other than the adverts (I’ve never tried Saga FM)
For heaven’s sake even BaL is a no go area for me now.

[Andy Freude]

You have indeed, but, as has been said before, given the government’s view of the BBC do you, realistically, think there is any chance of that ..... ??? So how, given a shrinking resource, do you create/maintain the bridge or do we, in your opinion, not need or deserve one ....

'You' (whoever 'you' is intended to designate) don't need one since Classic FM and Scala Radio have been launched for 'you'. If they don't suit 'your' needs, imagine a situation where Radio 3 doesn't suit us. But we have nowhere else to go as far as either BBC or commercial broadcasting is concerned.

James Bloody Purnell says:- "'Radio used to be a background medium, often put on without thinking. But not any more, now it needs to earn its place in someone's day...." A background medium is exactly what Radio3 has become. It may earn its place in someone's day, but increasingly seldom in ours. SURELY to goodness, that point isn't difficult to grasp?

It's a question of what Radio 3's main purpose is (or was). It did not need to form a bridge for newcomers to introduce them to classical music because the BBC did that already - on Radio 2/the Light Programme and Radio 4/the Home Service, as well as on television.

The problem is that all the BBC wants to do is increase Radio 3's audience, which is light miles away from introducing them to classical music. Capeesh?

[Serial_Apologist]

That is really breathtakingly unfair. How about:- "Giving over the entire morning from 6.30 to noon to forming 'a bridge for newcomers to classical music' is not a fair or reasonable position"? Effectively, you are saying that Radio 3 (apart from the less popular slots) should be for newcomers; and devotees of classical music should pick out the few remaining programmes that suit them, on Sounds if it's inconvenient to listen to them live. But newcomers and - what? light listeners? less attentive listeners? listeners who want light entertainment rather than education? - should definitely have the whole of the morning, six days a week.

ferneyhoughgeliebte makes the point: newcomers to classical music already have Classic FM and now Scala Radio. Why should they have all the popular listening hours on Radio 3 as well because BBC managers want to get their share of the big audiences? Radio 3 mornings are well dumbed down, the excuse being that lots of people like it. Wow.

Exactly - and well said! One could add by rhetorically asking, for what type of listening experience is the interrupted, episodic character of either Breakfast or Essential Classics purporting to "educate" the newcomers - just assuming it is, of course?

[teamsaint]

Andy has already answered that one:



... given those two already-existing options, and the fact (how many times do I have to repeat this?) the fact that there is no British broadcaster who meets the needs of listeners who require different content and presentation, then it falls to the BBC to provide it for us. Or do we, in your opinion, not need or deserve one?

The point that nobody ( and apologies if they have and I missed it) has dealt with is the fact that there is plenty of time and space for R3 to cater to both its own desire to build a new audience whilst maintaining or expanding its more in depth content.
24 hours a day broadcasting, its web pages and BBC Sounds give plenty of scope. Cash might be an issue, ( though they seem to fill the time available) but space isn’t.

[oddoneout]

That’s what I now do.
On the odd occasions I stumble upon breakfast,essential classics or in tune (for a few seconds) I honestly can’t tell the difference between them and Classic FM other than the adverts (I’ve never tried Saga FM)
For heaven’s sake even BaL is a no go area for me now.

It's quite a significant difference if listening is a daily rather than intermittent occurrence, and is the reason often given for CFM listeners moving to R3. That is not a reason for R3 to become fullfat CFM for the whole morning though - and (anecdotally at least) is unnecessary since despite assumptions not all CFM listeners are incapable of coping with 'proper' R3 output.

It's a question of what Radio 3's main purpose is (or was). It did not need to form a bridge for newcomers to introduce them to classical music because the BBC did that already - on Radio 2/the Light Programme and Radio 4/the Home Service, as well as on television.

But since that no longer seems to be the case Andy should there be no bridge or should R3 try and fill the gap - but not by the current methods I hasten to add.

[Andy Freude]

But since that no longer seems to be the case Andy should there be no bridge or should R3 try and fill the gap - but not by the current methods I hasten to add.

From the time (before my time listening to Radio 3!) Radio 3 broadcast such programmes as Pied Piper (for young listeners) or Sounds Interesting (for 'eclectic tastes') Radio 3 has always broadcast programmes for other listeners. But the amount of airtime now devoted to the newcomer/young/casual goes well beyond the specially crafted programmes for those who hadn't yet reached the nirvana of the classical devotee. To be honest, an evening concert whose USP is that 'you can't hear that unique performance anywhere else' isn't enough to buy continued loyalty.

Given that people who want to develop a new taste for classical music only have to sit by the radio and listen-to-the-bloody-music, why do they also need to have presenters making inane comments which add little to their knowledge? Are they really incapable of sitting and listening to one piece of music for 30 mins or so? If so, classical music probably isn't for them anyway.

'But not by the current methods' - exactly! That's mainly what makes programmes impossible to listen to.

[Andrew Slater]

Fuller BBC version here (I haven't read it yet, but suspect it'll add fuel to the fire ).

[antongould]

At the risk of being even more breathtakingly unfair I would comment as follows ...

The bridge that used to be there on R2 a couple of decades ago is now totally gone and, as has been said on another thread, the station has become almost totally 80s/90s pop .......

For people who wish to listen to the old style R3 the facility to download TTN is easily available - as Edgy points out - and a number of members have said they do this - my suspicion, maybe unfounded and unfair, is that if TTN ran live from 05:30 to 12:00 a lot of the people who attack the morning output wouldn’t listen, given the size of their CD collections and streaming services .....

I do find myself educated by the morning output, often by the much hated Playlister Challenge (?) when, obviously very knowledgeable, listeners suggest pieces that many others, myself included, have never heard before.

As to CFM and Scala being available bridges ..... I think I am not alone in hating the intrusion of constantly repeated advertisements .... further as someone pointed out their playlists are hardly inspiring .......

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Or do we, in your opinion, not need or deserve one?

my suspicion, maybe unfounded and unfair, is that if TTN ran live from 05:30 to 12:00 a lot of the people who attack the morning output wouldn’t listen, given the size of their CD collections and streaming services ......

I'll take that as a "no", then.

[Andy Freude]

At the risk of being even more breathtakingly unfair I would comment as follows ...

The bridge that used to be there on R2 a couple of decades ago is now totally gone and, as has been said on another thread, the station has become almost totally 80s/90s pop .......

Do you not blush at coming out with same old chestnut "No one else is doing it, so let's have it on Radio 3"?

For people who wish to listen to the old style R3 the facility to download TTN is easily available

Yes, never mind the shared experience of listening to radio, you lot can listen to the On Demand service on your computers. Just leave us alone to listen to Radio 3.

I do find myself educated by the morning output, often by the much hated Playlister Challenge

I take everything I've said back and humbly apologise. The morning output suits you - I will crawl back into my hole apologising to you for being so selfish.

As to CFM and Scala being available bridges ..... I think I am not alone in hating the intrusion of constantly repeated advertisements .... further as someone pointed out their playlists are hardly inspiring .......

Yes, very unreasonable of me to suggest you should have to put up with hated advertisements. Must be as tiresome as listening to presenter inanities … oops! sorry pardon again.

[oddoneout]

Fuller BBC version here (I haven't read it yet, but suspect it'll add fuel to the fire ).

What did catch my eye - and not in a good way - was this gem

In a celebration of extraordinary female creativity,

. My mind immediately went to Dr Johnson's "Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all." 'Extraordinary' was so not the right word, as they say.

[antongould]

I'll take that as a "no", then.

I presume you learned this tactic at the Spennymoor Men’s Club Thursday Debates - pinch your opponent’s question and tell him how he has answered it .....

[antongould]

Do you not blush at coming out with same old chestnut "No one else is doing it, so let's have it on Radio 3"?



Yes, never mind the shared experience of listening to radio, you lot can listen to the On Demand service on your computers. Just leave us alone to listen to Radio 3.



I take everything I've said back and humbly apologise. The morning output suits you - I will crawl back into my hole apologising to you for being so selfish.



Yes, very unreasonable of me to suggest you should have to put up with hated advertisements. Must be as tiresome as listening to presenter inanities … oops! sorry pardon again.

Apologies gracefully accepted ........