The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[LMcD]

And in any case, there are umpteen other radio channels broadcasting nothing but continuous pop and easy listening ; it isn't something one needs to seek; one can scarcely avoid it . R3 is the only place whore one can (less often than before ) hear complete works of intellectually-stimulating music, drama, poetry, discussion. There is simply no excuse for not doing that all the time .

And there need be no concern about 'too much' of that ; one doesn't have to listen all day. Who was it said 'remember that it is as important to switch off, as to switch on.'?


...wel, it was Sir John Reith, actually.

I can't see myself abandoning Radio 3 completely, but I tune in a lot less than I used to do. Fortunately, as has been pointed out, there are plenty of alternative classical music stations available, and some charity shops are now selling CDs for 10p each!

[Serial_Apologist]

... and some charity shops are now selling CDs for 10p each!

Must check my locale sometime.

[oddoneout]

R3 may lately have upset some traditionalists by trying to be populist and approachable with some of its programming. If programmes of that type don't appeal to me, I simply don't listen. With any luck there will be a live lunchtime Lieder recital coming up. With a range of broadcasting 24/7 there is always going to be enough to stimulate and entertain. I can't judge if R3 is mimicking Classic FM since I never listen to the latter.

I'm not sure that there is much of a range now, as so much is done to the bits and pieces format - filleted works, further diluted by too many adverts, and increasing quantities of presenter chat. Now that Afternoon Concert has gone the same way, and the evening concert programmes seem unwilling to include anything written before 1850 or so, my listening hours have very greatly reduced. I enjoy Breakfast, not least for the "something different" nature of its music content - and I don't mean what might be considered non R3 material - but am concerned that even that will be taken away as the ad infection spreads. EC has become take it or leave it, partly as I'm often doing other things. The lunchtime concert(nearly always a recital in my view rather than concert but no matter) is still a proper R3 item, and I listen to many. Whereas the radio use to stay on for AC, it more often than not is turned off now. The 3pm slot may be of interest but the hour of parts of other works or dismantled concert recordings that precedes it I now find I can't be doing with.
Does this scattered confetti approach actually achieve anything? Losing aged listeners such as myself isn't a concern I know, but is this new approach bringing in new listeners, and more to the point is it bringing in enough to justify both dismantling even more of the good bits of R3, and losing existing audience? Would continuing to programme Afternoon Concert as previously, rather than turning it into EC Plus, really frighten away the new audience(if it exists even), or might it allow some more adventurous new listeners to venture into hardcore classical - whole works not bits, pieces lasting longer than a few minutes, music that doesn't fit the perceived classical image?

[LMcD]

I'm not sure that there is much of a range now, as so much is done to the bits and pieces format - filleted works, further diluted by too many adverts, and increasing quantities of presenter chat. Now that Afternoon Concert has gone the same way, and the evening concert programmes seem unwilling to include anything written before 1850 or so, my listening hours have very greatly reduced. I enjoy Breakfast, not least for the "something different" nature of its music content - and I don't mean what might be considered non R3 material - but am concerned that even that will be taken away as the ad infection spreads. EC has become take it or leave it, partly as I'm often doing other things. The lunchtime concert(nearly always a recital in my view rather than concert but no matter) is still a proper R3 item, and I listen to many. Whereas the radio use to stay on for AC, it more often than not is turned off now. The 3pm slot may be of interest but the hour of parts of other works or dismantled concert recordings that precedes it I now find I can't be doing with.
Does this scattered confetti approach actually achieve anything? Losing aged listeners such as myself isn't a concern I know, but is this new approach bringing in new listeners, and more to the point is it bringing in enough to justify both dismantling even more of the good bits of R3, and losing existing audience? Would continuing to programme Afternoon Concert as previously, rather than turning it into EC Plus, really frighten away the new audience(if it exists even), or might it allow some more adventurous new listeners to venture into hardcore classical - whole works not bits, pieces lasting longer than a few minutes, music that doesn't fit the perceived classical image?

I think this is the most important of the questions that you pose. Is there any reason to think, or evidence to show, that any new listeners who happen to chance on some of the 'bits and pieces' to which you refer will be encouraged, or take the trouble, to set off on their own journeys of musical discovery? Given the much greater range of leisure activities that young people in particular can enjoy these days, do they even have, or give themselves, the time to discover major classical works in the way that we oldies did?

[oddoneout]

There has been criticism about the amount of cross-linking/promo influenced content appearing on programmes but this morning's Breakfast had an example of the more acceptable and positive side perhaps. A piece by Morales was played and the back announcement mentioned it was good to hear the Morales Magnificat octavi toni on CE yesterday, and then went on to mention some of the music making work that Leeds Cathedral does - the mention of 6000 schoolchildren a week caught my ear so I looked at their website.
In this case the link(music/broadcast) was after the event(although I suppose one should allow for catch-up) but also drew attention to something worth celebrating. In both cases it wouldn't be something that many of the audience would otherwise encounter I suspect, as Morales is one of those composers R3 doesn't play much(too long ago) and CE is a limited interest.

[LMcD]

There has been criticism about the amount of cross-linking/promo influenced content appearing on programmes but this morning's Breakfast had an example of the more acceptable and positive side perhaps. A piece by Morales was played and the back announcement mentioned it was good to hear the Morales Magnificat octavi toni on CE yesterday, and then went on to mention some of the music making work that Leeds Cathedral does - the mention of 6000 schoolchildren a week caught my ear so I looked at their website.
In this case the link(music/broadcast) was after the event(although I suppose one should allow for catch-up) but also drew attention to something worth celebrating. In both cases it wouldn't be something that many of the audience would otherwise encounter I suspect, as Morales is one of those composers R3 doesn't play much(too long ago) and CE is a limited interest.

While it's very hard to see precisely what kind of broadcasting experiences Essential Classics and the Afternoon Concert are meant to offer and who their target audiences are, I reckon the 'Breakfast team' know precisely what they're doing and have found what, at least for some people, myself included, is the right mix for the 0630-0900 slot.

[french frank]

I reckon the 'Breakfast team' know precisely what they're doing and have found what, at least for some people, myself included, is the right mix for the 0630-0900 slot.

It looks as if last quarter the Breakfast figure was a good 30,000 down on a year ago, and on the previous quarter (down 5%). So maybe they ought to concentrate on what a potential R3 listener might want to hear rather than what their current listeners want (so we'll give them more of the same)?

Poor overall quarterly R3 figure too: 1.775m (compared with 6Music's 2.519m).

Whatever the Cunning Plan is, it doesn't seem to have been an overwhelming success, and doesn't even have the excuse that R3 'cultivates cultural excellence which will only ever attract a minority audience'.

[LMcD]

It looks as if last quarter the Breakfast figure was a good 30,000 down on a year ago, and on the previous quarter (down 5%). So maybe they ought to concentrate on what a potential R3 listener might want to hear rather than what their current listeners want (so we'll give them more of the same)?

Poor overall quarterly R3 figure too: 1.775m (compared with 6Music's 2.519m).

Whatever the Cunning Plan is, it doesn't seem to have been an overwhelming success, and doesn't even have the excuse that R3 'cultivates cultural excellence which will only ever attract a minority audience'.

... while Classic FM has added 222,000 listeners overall.

[french frank]

... while Classic FM has added 222,000 listeners overall.

So R3 isn't satisfying either the "traditionalist" R3 listener or the more "populist" listener? That said, I haven't yet studied the CFM figures - and they needed a bit of a boost after a lengthy slump.

CFM breakfast audience showing a 15,000 increase year on year and quarter on quarter.

[LMcD]

So R3 isn't satisfying either the "traditionalist" R3 listener or the more "populist" listener? That said, I haven't yet studied the CFM figures - and they needed a bit of a boost after a lengthy slump.

Classic FM's listenership in Q4 2023 was its 5th lowest recorded by RAJAR.
I think the answer to your question has to be "Yes". Radio 3 satisfies me some of the time, but a lot less overall than it used to.

[french frank]

Classic FM's listenership on Q4 2023 was its 5th lowest, so it's another case of a recovery from a low base.

Yes, that was my point. But I then added the breakfast figures for CFM, showing an increase. R3 seems marginally be going the opposite way, at least quarter on quarter, from the main network stations.

[Kernow Malc]

Well, the Breakfast Show has lost this listener.

[oddoneout]

Yes, that was my point. But I then added the breakfast figures for CFM, showing an increase. R3 seems marginally be going the opposite way, at least quarter on quarter, from the main network stations.

I suppose the official view is that given R3's demographic there is going to be a greater element of natural wastage than other stations. However if the figures aren't even staying level then the attempts to attract a new(replacement) audience are not working. And that's not taking into account what might be considered the induced(preventable?) wastage, ie those existing listeners who've given up in despair/disgust, who might still be there if it wasn't for the effects of the new audience drive.

[french frank]

I suppose the official view is that given R3's demographic there is going to be a greater element of natural wastage than other stations. However if the figures aren't even staying level then the attempts to attract a new(replacement) audience are not working. And that's not taking into account what might be considered the induced(preventable?) wastage, ie those existing listeners who've given up in despair/disgust, who might still be there if it wasn't for the effects of the new audience drive.

Broadly I agree. Though quarter-on-quarter isn't a good guide as there are fluctuations throughout the year anyway. I haven't retrieved my historic figures as yet or studied the new quarter in light of the overall trend. But without needing to check them I can say that a weekly average of 1.775m is not a good figure. I wouldn't say the Breakfast figure was a disaster but it wouldn't lift the gloom if there was any sense of demoralisation in any part of R3.

But it comes back to the question which I see no evidence of R3 management sitting down to think about: what is R3 for?

[Ian Thumwood]

Just picked up on this debate. When I was working in Andover in the 1990s, my company car did not have a cassette player that worked and I had no option but to listen to the radio, For about 7 years I was a regular listener to Radio 3 having retained an interest after my car was replaced by one that did play other formats than a radio. If I am honest, I was only ever interested in particular number of composers at that time but the breakfast programme really broadened my pallette. I was really grateful for the music they played and inspired me to investigate further.

It is interesting to read some of the criticisms as I stopped listening when they first introduced Petroc Trelawny and his voice and style of broadcasting drove me around the bend. I thought Andrew Green was terrific and was annoyed when he was replaced in the early 2000s. I liked the fact that AG was into jazz too and that some jazz would be selected from time to time and also that articles from some of the broadsheets would be discussed regarding the works of particular composers, performers, etc, etc. For me, it was the presenter who was the "problem" more than the music and I later felt the same about Sean Rafferty. In both instances, this made me switch off.

Back in December I listened a few times to the drive time programme and felt that the female presenter was asking some really stupid questions about the music. For me, the issue is very much an issue with how the music is presented. These days, it all seems a bit predictable and there seems to be a blurring of the earlier BBC Radio 3 house style and the more popular Classic FM. Regarding the latter, it does not "inform" and is something of "Greatest hits" selection of the works of composers who are unlikely to offend. i.e. It reflects the fact that it is not a public broadcaster and, in doing so, personally presents classical music that either does not appeal or re-casts the music as a rarefied museum piece. Given the excessive adverts the pervade as well, it is not the kind f template that i would like to see the BBC follow.

I do feel that there is a crisis within broadcasting as streaming have effectively challenged radio broadcasting. It is easy to listen to anything you want as opposed to expecting a public service to potentially play something that floats your boat. There is a similar outcry on the Jazz board as JRR has been replaced with a repeat of a programme from last year. I would guess that it is older people who are asking for requests whilst any whippersnappers out there wanting to hear somrthing my Sonny Clark are probably streaming it, When I go to classical gigs, I go notice that other than music students, I am still very much a nipper when constrasted with the oher people going to concerts. I will be 57 in May!