The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[oddoneout]

Working definition of Pubic Service Broadcasting: giving people something they didn't know they wanted....

Applies to Public Service Broadcasting as well...?

[Ein Heldenleben]

"For those who like that sort of thing, said Miss Brodie in her best Edinburgh voice, That is the sort of thing they like." In other words, in this case, it always boils down to people saying 'Well I enjoy it.' That does not probe any deeper into why it is right for Radio 3 to have gone in this direction (other than to provide some people with what they like).

Whereas the counterargument has been laid out so many times, that one is left simply with the sad conclusion that people don't accept an argument that goes against their own personal point of view or preference.

1. The BBC has an entire portfolio of radio stations (as well as television channels). If the intention is to offer certain types of content to a broader range of listeners, why can they not incorporate a significant portion of it on any or all the other stations? To responses such as "It wouldn't fit in with what Radio 1/Radio 2 or (wherever) does, the naysayers among us might point out that it doesn't really fit in well with what a serious arts station has traditionally done, traditionally accepted as intended for a smaller audience, not a broad general one. It simply deprives those who wanted something 'meatier' (your word: could we say tastier, instead, please?), even for breakfast, and not necessarily a complete Mahler 2.

2. If adding bits of classical music to R1 or R2 would have listeners switching off, so putting Judy Garland, Tom Lehrer, or Pinky and Perky in the middle of a classical sequence causes listeners to turn off. It wouldn't stop Radio 4 going back to some of its traditional concert output ("Radio 4 is just speech." "Why? Radio 3 manages to combine speech and music."

3. "Radio 3's small audience makes the 'expensive' service unviable." "So how many more listeners does Radio 3 have now, after 20 years of trying to reach the 'broader audience.' (Answer: none, it gained some new listeners but lost the same number of existing listeners. And the average age has been going up, not down).

4. "As a Public Service Broadcaster, the BBC services have to reach all audiences." "Then why is Radio 1 targeted on the 15-29 age group? Why is there a special Asian Network? 1Xtra playing Black music? That argument is very selective - it only applies to Radio 3, which has to reach all ages, all ethnic backgrounds, all social grades, all musical interests, but isn't allowed to specialise. Why?"

5. My argument: why is the BBC not able/willing to provide a single specialist arts service, for those whose primary interest is in enjoying - and expanding their knowledge about - classical music, world literature, the general arts, other so-called 'minority' musical interests, including serious jazz and global traditional music? I mean a service that provides more than just the concerts and recitals: "music to listen to" but 'contextualises', discusses, informs, educates?

These are points of principle: they go beyond saying, well you may like it but I don't.

I completely agree with you. In my flip around the 70’s R3 schedules I saw poetry programmes at 9.00 in the morning . Proper poetry that is - not ( even though I like him ) Ian McMillan

[oddoneout]

I have no difficulty about that. (Unlike others, it seems, I did listen to the entire 52 minutes of Occam Ocean II and won't say I liked it or disliked it. I consider it 52 minutes of experience, not wasted). But it's being given what you know you don't want because, yes, you have heard it before, that's the problem.

If you like jazz, you can listen to the jazz programmes which don't get snatches of classical music in between the pieces. Nor do the world music programmes. And Late Junction doesn't often get beyond the odd bit of John Adama, or less often, Jesus Blood Never Failed Me Yet.

It's the programmes billed as 'classical programmes' that get the ragbag assortment of short pieces interrupted with irrelevant (to the music) small talk.

That sounds like a good reason for making one's own programmes/concerts. What happens if a concert you attend includes something you don't like, as a matter of interest? Or do you avoid the whole concert?
I would agree that it is unhelpful and lazy(also misleading) to use the term classical programme for the morning miscellany. Not all the items are random pieces however, increasingly now there are good sequences with a theme, which includes the talk part, which may include music from a wide spectrum. Within that framework the occasional inclusion of some non R3/ mainstream classical content seems a reasonable thing to do.

[french frank]

That sounds like a good reason for making one's own programmes/concerts. What happens if a concert you attend includes something you don't like, as a matter of interest? Or do you avoid the whole concert?

I've never actually been to a concert where they play short extracts of pieces with bits of jazz, musicals, comic songs, talking parrots etc. in between. But, yes, I do choose concerts which have music that I would be interested to hear.

I would agree that it is unhelpful and lazy(also misleading) to use the term classical programme for the morning miscellany. Not all the items are random pieces however, increasingly now there are good sequences with a theme, which includes the talk part, which may include music from a wide spectrum.

Well, if they gave an inkling of anything at all that was going to be on, with just the teeniest hint of the approximate time, I might be tempted by a sequence lasting 30 or 40 minutes. But to turn on specially in the hope that there might be something with more interest than jaw-grinding irritation, no. I don't bother to look for non-existent information.

Within that framework the occasional inclusion of some non R3/ mainstream classical content seems a reasonable thing to do.

Just as a matter of interest, why does it seem reasonable?

[kernelbogey]

Returning, briefly, to the actual topic du jour I have just experimented with trying to isten to Saturday Breakfast for a whole hour. I lasted 35 minute before I really had to switch the radio off. This presenter has not learned how to use their voice when in front of a microphone: learned that it exaggerates speech modulations, which are this presenter's Achiles heel, and this writer's bete noire. They could profitably listen carefully to professionals such as Jonathan Swain, Catriona Youing, John Shea, Jill Anderson to hear how it's done on a serious music programme for adults, not a playschool for preschoolers. I don't want to be patronised, even if it's unintentional.

[kernelbogey]

I would agree that it is unhelpful and lazy(also misleading) to use the term classical programme for the morning miscellany.

Unfortunately, the term classical music has long ceased to mean anything like 'music written and performed in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries', and has been redifined by record marketing people to mean 'any music we can't call pop, rock, film music' etc: akin to 'World Music' having been coined to define music by exclusiion, in order to help record store staff display it as a genre.

[kernelbogey]

giving people something they didn't know they wanted....

I've only known that phrase as a definition of marketing. 'Nuff said....

[Leinster Lass]

Applies to Public Service Broadcasting as well...?

Oh - I thought the message you're referring to was meant to be a rather clever joke.

Many years ago I saw a film - can't remember the title - about the construction of a statue. commemorating a local dignitary, in the municipal park. After much argument, delay and intrigue, the edifice was duly unveiled, together with the plaque reading 'THIS MONUMENT WAS ERECTED WITH THE HELP OF PUBIC SUBSCRIPTION'

Re #9050: As mentioned earlier, I listen to some or most of 'Breakfast' Sunday to Friday (only!).

[subcontrabass]

Oh - I thought the message you're referring to was meant to be a rather clever joke.

Many years ago I saw a film - can't remember the title - about the construction of a statue. commemorating a local dignitary, in the municipal park. After much argument, delay and intrigue, the edifice was duly unveiled, together with the plaque reading 'THIS MONUMENT WAS ERECTED WITH THE HELP OF PUBIC SUBSCRIPTION'

A Home of Your Own (1965) I think.

[oddoneout]

Returning, briefly, to the actual topic du jour I have just experimented with trying to isten to Saturday Breakfast for a whole hour. I lasted 35 minute before I really had to switch the radio off. This presenter has not learned how to use their voice when in front of a microphone: learned that it exaggerates speech modulations, which are this presenter's Achiles heel, and this writer's bete noire. They could profitably listen carefully to professionals such as Jonathan Swain, Catriona Youing, John Shea, Jill Anderson to hear how it's done on a serious music programme for adults, not a playschool for preschoolers. I don't want to be patronised, even if it's unintentional.

Saturday is not the best one to try, even I, as a lower grade R3 listener who does pollute my intellect with the morning schedule, struggle with Ms Alker. I'm sure she has many fine qualities but her voice I find difficult, lacking the clarity I need as I struggle with deciphering the spoken word at the best of times. That's nothing to do with accent btw, it's something about what I can only describe as the fuzzy edges aspect. I'm not especially engaged by her choice of music either, but I will generally stick with it as a convenient opportunity to broaden my listening experience, even if it sometimes ends up being a rather negative one. Same approach I try to take with the concerts later in the day that may contain works by modern/contemporary composers - give it a try, and then if necessary deploy off switch, because otherwise I don't know if it might be something I find of interest.

[Leinster Lass]

Saturday is not the best one to try, even I, as a lower grade R3 listener who does pollute my intellect with the morning schedule, struggle with Ms Alker. I'm sure she has many fine qualities but her voice I find difficult, lacking the clarity I need as I struggle with deciphering the spoken word at the best of times. That's nothing to do with accent btw, it's something about what I can only describe as the fuzzy edges aspect. I'm not especially engaged by her choice of music either, but I will generally stick with it as a convenient opportunity to broaden my listening experience, even if it sometimes ends up being a rather negative one. Same approach I try to take with the concerts later in the day that may contain works by modern/contemporary composers - give it a try, and then if necessary deploy off switch, because otherwise I don't know if it might be something I find of interest.

Aha - a kindred spirit and fellow lower-grade listener! Actually, I'm genuinely in awe of the knowledge and articulacy of some Forum members whose discussions I followed, or in some cases tried to follow, before I plucked up courage to register. If, for me, some 'modern classical music' - well, quite a lot if it, If I'm being honest - is a real No-No, that's my problem! One of my current areas of discovery is contemporaries of Mozart.

[french frank]

Saturday is not the best one to try, even I, as a lower grade R3 listener who does pollute my intellect with the morning schedule ...

The interesting thing is that Radio 3 will know whether the Saturday ratings are better or worse than in the past. But if the red-necked apoplectic extremists (like myself) and the self-styled 'lower grade R3 listeners' have difficulty - who is still persevering with it?

The advantages to the BBC are presumably 1) cost: a presenter from, shall we say, R2 or R5, will already be on a (short-term) contract, so using them on R3 as well merely involves extra hours, not employing a new body 2) a presenter who is already popular and has a personal following on, say, 6 Music, may well encourage 6 Music listeners to follow their hero/heroine over to R3 3) someone who already lives fairly close to the Breakfast studio in Salford won't have the travel expenses.

Victoria Meakin came from Radio 5 Live, and sundry other temps have come from BBC local radio stations in the north. None of them lasted very long. The new ploy was even to offer EA her own programme, with music calculated to appeal to a wider range of listeners than the traditional bedrock R3 audience (esp to 6 Music listeners?) - just as Late Junction was started in order to pull in new listeners who had had no interest in R3's staple diet.

[kernelbogey]

But if the red-necked apoplectic extremists (like myself) and the self-styled 'lower grade R3 listeners' have difficulty - who is still persevering with it?

Perhaps those for whom it is simply a background to their Saturday routine - washing sports kit, making coffee, washing the car.... and whether it's Beethoven or Bird, EA or MH, what do they care...?
A local cafe here, mostly patronised by those in, er, mid life usually has Classic FM on a radio fairly softly, and I suspect no one pays any attention.
So Breakfast becomes just entertainment.

[antongould]

The interesting thing is that Radio 3 will know whether the Saturday ratings are better or worse than in the past. But if the red-necked apoplectic extremists (like myself) and the self-styled 'lower grade R3 listeners' have difficulty - who is still persevering with it? ........

Well I am - but then I would be wouldn’t I .........

[antongould]

I'm one of those prepared to admit to listening to and mostly enjoying the morning schedules. However like my fellow renegades I don't consider the set-up ideal and we have all at various times criticised and offered opinions about how things could be changed and/or improved. I think I'm correct in saying that there is support for not having the whole morning devoted to the casual approach that irks so many forumites, and that a transition from 9am or 10 am to the more meaty fare post midday would be welcome. Things have changed and most of the really dire content of a couple of years ago has gone. Two core issues remain for the antis - the filleting of whole works/bleeding chunks approach, and the perennial differences of opinion about what types of music are considered 'appropriate' for a R3 programme. The first issue, while understanding the arguments against, I can mostly live with, although there are times when it grates even for this cultural deficient - such as this morning when SK decided that playing just the 3rd movt of LvB's 6th was good idea... Whether that needs to be the format for the whole morning's schedule? I would argue not, and I don't think if the transition to midday was done well (quite a big 'if' these days sadly) it would alienate listeners. The issue of 'suitable' music makes me uncomfortable. I think I missed out by not having exposure to a wider variety of genres, and it certainly didn't help me, as an unconfident child, to have no knowledge of anything outside a rather narrow received view of what constituted 'good' (ie acceptable) music, which had no common ground with my peers. The occasional intrusion of unworthy(pop, jazz, film - the list seems quite long sometimes) music in the morning line-up doesn't cause me palpitations; it won't last long if I don't like it, in the same way that pieces deemed suitable for R3 are sometimes very much not to my taste, but will soon be over. My view is that it's all music, it's all a learning opportunity, bit like the fact we are all human beings, but different individuals; we get on with some and not others.
which it then doesn't seem to research adequately before launching and doesn't seem to bother to monitor once it has launched, as far as the R3 'initiatives' are concerned - or so it seems to me. Some of the gimmicks fall into the painful - rather like politicians trying to engage with yoof and just making fools and laughing stocks of themselves. The attempts to attract a younger audience and to ape CFM (the morning programmes being part of the latter) seem to have achieved the dubious distinction of not attracting the intended audience and driving away the existing listeners, certainly in the case of the younger audience aim. Whether improvements to the morning offering have been the result of listener feedback I don't know, but I rather doubt that there will be a bigger shift to a better balance of casual and quality(whole works, better information) unfortunately.

IMVVHO very well said OOO .........