The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Andrew Slater]

Breakfast Praised by R4 Feedback

It starts at 22:33 into the podcast; presumably the same into the iPlayer

Not good news to this thread, today's Feedback had a feature on Breakfast, from the point of view of R4 listeners escaping Today.

PT repeats the mantra that most people listen for about 20 mins so there's no point broadcasting a 45-min symphony ..... nobody will hear the whole work.

It appears that this was in response to an article on an earlier edition of Feedback (podcast here, iPlayer here, 17:28 in.)

Bob Shennan is on next week ......

[french frank]

PT repeats the mantra that most people listen for about 20 mins so there's no point broadcasting a 45-min symphony ..... nobody will hear the whole work.

Whereas if you play a single movement … ?

It also suggests that Breakfast is for R4 (and possibly R2) listeners, rather than R3 listeners.

[hmvman]

Well I started to listen to 'Breakfast' regularly a couple of years ago because I was sick of 'Today' and needed to escape.

And I probably do only listen for about 20 mins....

[french frank]

And I probably do only listen for about 20 mins....

There are bound to be people who only listen for "about 20 minutes", some possibly less. But:
Does it really mean "most people only listen for 20 minutes"?
Does it mean "on average people listen for only 20 minutes" (a meaningles statistic).
Should those who listen for longer be deprived because "most people only listen for 20 minutes"?
Again, what is the difference between "not listening to a complete symphony" because one hasn't time (only listening for 20 minutes), and not listening to a complete symphony (even of 30 minutes) because Radio 3 doesn't play complete symphonies? [The answer to the last one is that listeners choose not to listen to a long work, but Radio 3 chooses not to play a long work.]

So, I listen for 20 minutes, switching on at 07.05 and I hear:

2 minutes (the end) of the Overture to Candide.
1 minute of the presenter telling me what it was and what I shall hear next.
3 minutes of Copland's Rodeo Hoedown
2 minutes of the presenter back announcing and reading out a tweet, then an announcement of what I shall hear next
4 minutes of Dvorak's Slavonic Dance No 1.
2 minutes of the presenter telling me something
5 minutes of Mozart's Symphony No 28 (5 minutes of first movement)

OFF

Frankly, why bother?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Should those who listen for longer be deprived because "most people only listen for 20 minutes"?

I think that this is the main point for me, in that there is no available (broadcast) alternative to the "itsy-bitsy" format. R3 gives it, CFM gives it ... anyone wanting a to start their day with an extended piece of Music, uninterrupted by jocular chatter, has to resort to their CD collection. Which is what I have done for the past five years, tuning into Breakfast and Ess Classics very infrequently, and only to check that the format hasn't changed to something better - and always coming away rapidly from such exposure appalled at how much worse it has become.

Would anyone here stop listening if longer works were broadcast at that time of day? (And, not incidentally, what are all those "45 minute Symphonies" that are used as the straw men in these arguments? There's a vast range of multi-movement orchestral, instrumental, and chamber works from all periods of Music that take about half-an-hour to perform in full.)

BUT - again speaking personally - I suspect that the listening habits that the dire pre-noon R3 offerings have forced me into have become ingrained. The routine each evening of choosing CDs to play the following morning is now such an enjoyable part of my life that even if there was a return to the standards of morning broadcasting that I relished from aged 13 to 35, I don't know if I would wish to tune into it these days. R3 has lost me.

[cloughie]

There are bound to be people who only listen for "about 20 minutes", some possibly less. But:
Does it really mean "most people only listen for 20 minutes"?
Does it mean "on average people listen for only 20 minutes" (a meaningles statistic).
Should those who listen for longer be deprived because "most people only listen for 20 minutes"?
Again, what is the difference between "not listening to a complete symphony" because one hasn't time (only listening for 20 minutes), and not listening to a complete symphony (even of 30 minutes) because Radio 3 doesn't play complete symphonies? [The answer to the last one is that listeners choose not to listen to a long work, but Radio 3 chooses not to play a long work.]

So, I listen for 20 minutes, switching on at 07.25 and I hear:

2 minutes (the end) of the Overture to Candide.
1 minute of the presenter telling me what it was and what I shall hear next.
3 minutes of Copland's Rodeo Hoedown
2 minutes of the presenter back announcing and reading out a tweet, then an announcement of what I shall hear next
4 minutes od Dvorak's Slavonic Dance No 1.
2 minutes of the presenter telling me something
5 minutes of Mozart's Symphony No 28 (5 minutes of first movement)

OFF

Frankly, why bother?

Exactly. The formula R3B = CFM2

[cloughie]

I think that this is the main point for me, in that there is no available (broadcast) alternative to the "itsy-bitsy" format. R3 gives it, CFM gives it ... anyone wanting a to start their day with an extended piece of Music, uninterrupted by jocular chatter, has to resort to their CD collection. Which is what I have done for the past five years, tuning into Breakfast and Ess Classics very infrequently, and only to check that the format hasn't changed to something better - and always coming away rapidly from such exposure appalled at how much worse it has become.

Would anyone here stop listening if longer works were broadcast at that time of day? (And, not incidentally, what are all those "45 minute Symphonies" that are used as the straw men in these arguments? There's a vast range of multi-movement orchestral, instrumental, and chamber works from all periods of Music that take about half-an-hour to perform in full.)

BUT - again speaking personally - I suspect that the listening habits that the dire pre-noon R3 offerings have forced me into have become ingrained. The routine each evening of choosing CDs to play the following morning is now such an enjoyable part of my life that even if there was a return to the standards of morning broadcasting that I relished from aged 13 to 35, I don't know if I would wish to tune into it these days. R3 has lost me.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

You do need real staying power to listen to Breakfast for more than 20 minutes.

[oddoneout]

You do need real staying power to listen to Breakfast for more than 20 minutes.

Some of us have it, some don't......

However I keep coming back to the fact that the morning schedule(B&EC) is a very large chunk of airtime and I can see no good reason why, within that generous allowance, it seems to be impossible to address both types of listening. As stated on more than one occasion my preference(if we have to have it, and I do have mixed views) would be for the bitty/chatty stuff at the beginning, moving to something more substantial at say 10 or 10-30am, to lead into the afternoon offerings.

[antongould]

.....

Would anyone here stop listening if longer works were broadcast at that time of day? (And, not incidentally, what are all those "45 minute Symphonies" that are used as the straw men in these arguments? There's a vast range of multi-movement orchestral, instrumental, and chamber works from all periods of Music that take about half-an-hour to perform in full.)

No I don't think anyone "here" would but do we "here" have a fair cross section of Breakfast and Essential Classics listeners ... ??? Personally I doubt it. The question then is would many of the current population of B/EC listeners depart .... and before you ask, I don't know the answer ... I presume Lord Stockton and his team think they would .....

[doversoul1]

Filling a couple of hours with mainly short pieces should not in itself be a problem. Through the Night does it every day/night; like this. The timing includes the speech in between the music. The Breakfast's problem is obviously somewhere else.

3:49 AM
Debussy, Claude (1862-1918)
Sonata for cello and piano in D minor
Duo Krarup-Shirinyan: Johan Krarup (cello), Marianna Shirinyan (piano)
4:01 AM
Butterworth, Arthur (1923-2014)
Romanza for horn and strings
Martin Hackleman (horn), CBC Vancouver Orchestra, Mario Bernardi (conductor)
4:11 AM
Gabrieli, Andrea (1532/3-1585)
Aria della battaglia à 8
Theatrum Instrumentorum, Stefano Innocenti (conductor)
4:21 AM
Haapalainen, Väinö (1893-1945)
Lemminkainen Overture (1925)
Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, Atso Almila (conductor)
4:31 AM
Contant, (Joseph Pierre) Alexis (1858-1918)
Les Deux Âmes - overture
Edmonton Symphony Orchestra, Uri Mayer (conductor)
4:40 AM
Salzedo, Carlos (1885-1961)
Variations sur un thème dans le style ancien, Op 30
Mojca Zlobko (harp)
4:51 AM
Nystroem, Goesta (1890-1966)
Tre havsvisioner (3 Visions about the sea)
Swedish Radio Choir, Gustaf Sjökvist (conductor)
5:02 AM
Groneman, Johannes (c.1710-1778)
Flute Sonata in E minor
Jed Wentz (flute), Balazs Mate (cello), Marcelo Bussi (harpsichord)
5:14 AM
Liszt, Franz (1811-1886)
Légende No 1: St. François d'Assise prêchant aux oiseaux, S.175
Llyr Williams (piano)
5:25 AM
Fritsch, Balthasar (1570/80-after 1608)
Paduan and 2 Galliards (from Primitiae musicales, Frankfurt/Main 1606)
Hortus Musicus, Andres Mustonen (director)
5:33 AM
Debussy, Claude (1862-1918)
La Mer - 3 symphonic sketches for orchestra (1. De l'aube a midi sur la mer; 2. Jeux de vagues; 3. Dialogue du vent et de la mer)
BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, Ilan Volkov (conductor)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09xjjmd

[BBMmk2]

They played a nice bit of Bruckner this morning!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No I don't think anyone "here" would but do we "here" have a fair cross section of Breakfast and Essential Classics listeners ... ??? Personally I doubt it. The question then is would many of the current population of B/EC listeners depart .... and before you ask, I don't know the answer ... I presume Lord Stockton and his team think they would .....

But (leaving aside the falling numbers of R3 listeners that is already happening) that doesn't address the nature of choice. At the moment those of an "itsy-bitsy" preference have a choice of two national broadcasters to accommodate their inclinations - those who want something more substantial have nothing offered to them.

(To say nothing of those listeners who might savour such substantial works if they were offered it, but who don't yet know it because it isn't on offer. My discovery of R3 as a 13-year-old was semi-accidental: I had no idea that there was such programming - my Music teacher had suggested we give the station a listen; to discover long stretches of uninterrupted Music was a real life-changer for me. That sort of consideration doesn't seem to amount to much in the Beeb's desperate and unsuccessful attempts to poach the CFM audience.)

[french frank]

Filling a couple of hours with mainly short pieces should not in itself be a problem.

Why should one do that every time there is two hours to fill?

I'm with oddoneout - Essential Classics is the biggest problem. In the past there have been three separate programmes (4 in 2002 with the 5 minute Work in Progress), each having its own individual focus.

'Music' - of whatever kind - has now become a cheap, ubiquitous commodity for most people. Classical music is no different. Insofar as it differs, people are even less interested in it. Radio 3 should not have gone down that route of making it a life style accessory.

[oddoneout]

But (leaving aside the falling numbers of R3 listeners that is already happening) that doesn't address the nature of choice. At the moment those of an "itsy-bitsy" preference have a choice of two national broadcasters to accommodate their inclinations - those who want something more substantial have nothing offered to them. (

I would just point out that CFM is not necessarily the choice that some on here assume it is, because of the adverts. Inane and undesirable as the presenter chit chat may be on the R3 morning schedules it is still a long way removed from the brainwashing of repeated adverts, and a good few of the 'new' audience are I believe those who have got fed up with said adverts. The tragedy is that the increasing quantity of trailer trash(aka adverts) R3 now sees fit to bombard us with is in effect creating the same problem, with attendant risks of losing listeners.
How to make a disaster out of an opportunity......
When will those in charge get it through their thick heads that quality, intelligence, information are not synonymous with elitist, exclusive, inaccessible? If the'average' morning listener only tunes in for 20 minutes then make those 20 minutes count