The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[french frank]

So, moving on … if Zucchini is right (and I've no doubt he is) in saying that on average Breakfast listeners listen to the programme for only 30 mins - though Petroc once told me it was 20 mins - this is what on average they might hear on an 'average' day, according to our research project: 30 mins of Breakfast, of which 23 mins are music and the rest news, weather, texts, emails, listener details &c &c. Since the average length of a piece was almost exactly 5 mins, they will hear four complete pieces and a bit of one.

If they are unlucky with their timing, they will hear three complete pieces, one of which could be a vocalist singing 'Wunderbar' from Kiss Me Kate, the second a Slavonic Dance and the third the Overture from Candide. Alternatively, it could be a baritone singing 'So in Love' from Kiss Me Kate, Wedding Day at Troldhaugen and the Finale from Brahms's Violin Concerto (which, for these purposes counts as a complete work).

[antongould]

So, moving on … if Zucchini is right (and I've no doubt he is) in saying that on average Breakfast listeners listen to the programme for only 30 mins - though Petroc once told me it was 20 mins - this is what on average they might hear on an 'average' day, according to our research project: 30 mins of Breakfast, of which 23 mins are music and the rest news, weather, texts, emails, listener details &c &c. Since the average length of a piece was almost exactly 5 mins, they will hear four complete pieces and a bit of one.

If they are unlucky with their timing, they will hear three complete pieces, one of which could be a vocalist singing 'Wunderbar' from Kiss Me Kate, the second a Slavonic Dance and the third the Overture from Candide. Alternatively, it could be a baritone singing 'So in Love' from Kiss Me Kate, Wedding Day at Troldhaugen and the Finale from Brahms's Violin Concerto (which, for these purposes counts as a complete work).

Stretching any law of averages I know of ff - if I am not infringing copyright by using a bit of the survey I am familiar with

Average length of piece of music played - 5 min 37 secs

in average half hour 23.5 minutes of music 6.5 minutes of talk (39% of which was News and Weather)

Music played - of 21 pieces by 20 composers, 16 composers were in the widest reaches of the suffy 2014 survey and of the 4 who were not, 0 were of the sort you say we might hit above

...............................

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

30 minutes listening to Breakfast? I can only listen to this in fear of what might happen next. I'm too much of a coward to withstand it for that long.

Now, if we had full pieces, with listings in advance in the Radio Times, then I might listen for much longer. But that would take the power away from the presenters.

[mercia]

well we had a "full" I Was Glad, one might say 'very full' since I think it was the original version with separate vivats for king and queen. If Breakfast has now become basically a request programme I can only think that people VERY regularly request this Parry anthem.

[french frank]

Stretching any law of averages I know of ff - if I am not infringing copyright by using a bit of the survey I am familiar with

Average length of piece of music played - 5 min 37 secs

in average half hour 23.5 minutes of music 6.5 minutes of talk (39% of which was News and Weather)

Music played - of 21 pieces by 20 composers, 16 composers were in the widest reaches of the suffy 2014 survey and of the 4 who were not, 0 were of the sort you say we might hit above

...............................

Just checked your result AG: quite correct - your average was 5.6 (decimal), the longest piece was 9mins 40 secs, no light pieces, but four single movements. The figures I gave were the averages for 8 separate listeners. So, yes, you were unlikely to hit the exact averages. At the other end, a listener had the average piece at 4.8 mins (decimal), and Star Trek II, Getting married today (Sondheim) and You are my heart's delight. And four single movements (plus I didn't note as 'light' - the Radetsky March and Overture from Patience).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05zh64j

[antongould]

R

Just checked your result AG: quite correct - your average was 5.6 (decimal), the longest piece was 9mins 40 secs, no light pieces, but four single movements. The figures I gave were the averages for 8 separate listeners. So, yes, you were unlikely to hit the exact averages. At the other end, a listener had the average piece at 4.8 mins (decimal), and Star Trek II, Getting married today (Sondheim) and You are my heart's delight. And four single movements (plus I didn't note as 'light' - the Radetsky March and Overture from Patience).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05zh64j

And did these light pieces all come within the same half hour .......??

[antongould]

well we had a "full" I Was Glad, one might say 'very full' since I think it was the original version with separate vivats for king and queen. If Breakfast has now become basically a request programme I can only think that people VERY regularly request this Parry anthem.

I'm probably wrong mercs but I seem to sense an increase recently in the pleading for and receiving/playing of requests. Perhaps the post Proms survey will reveal all - unless, of course, I am the only one who can bear the "torture" ...........

[Lat-Literal]

One of my comments may have implied I think the efforts are a waste of time. That is not quite the case. I have the utmost respect for people who will fight the good fight. It is just that I don't have that capability anymore as the powers that be are all in their own odd, unpleasant little world. When it comes to daytime R3, I am of the view, frenchfrank, that your ideal might not be entirely in line with mine. But it is likely to be more in line with mine than what is on offer as it would be diverse, challenging, educational.

While I have no issues with "My Fair Lady" and "Star Wars" they are not in the area of where I want the softer popular edges to be, if there are to be any at all. They belong to Radio 2 along with One Direction. That needs to become the light family station - all generations - and to do away with its attempts at addressing the more serious aspects of popular music. Similarly 6 Music might aim more for a guitar indie and dance student style audience as does XFM although in doing so it would lose some of the qualities it has.

Which means I favour a new Radio 6 Extra. That obviously goes completely against the general drift of cuts but it wouldn't be costly. It would contain the Late Junctions, the world music and jazz music, the folk music and country music programmes currently on Radio 2, reggae and some experimental classicists like Cage and Varese and electronica.

The biggest gap on Radio 3 is a specific programme on the romantics and post-romantics and the next biggest is probably one devoted to British composers. I suppose those could be fitted in given that other programmes would move to the additional station as I have outlined. The key point is that my vision thing for Radio 3 - natch - would not principally be about my own musical preferences but something more post Reithian and in the interests of the commonweal whether most have been encouraged to know it (no) or not.

Footnote:

That 6 Extra could be a 3 Extra or even better a (2?-)3-6 Extra which would be more accurate, very, very striking as a name if properly "marketed" and also calm silo worriers!!

For the sake of completion, I think I would keep the lighter gold pop on R2 a la Smooth though a much bigger range and I'd shift some of the classic rock gold from 2 into 6 Music. That is not to say that Chris Evans can't do his Thin Lizzy and The Faces or that 6 Music would have to do Kiss rather than more Springsteen but it would be a shift in emphasis.

[french frank]

And did these light pieces all come within the same half hour .......??

It looks to me as if pretty much every half hour has a 'light piece'. If you tune in for the music, you won't get much of any interest. If you consider the music merely as the interludes which fill the gaps between the speech bits, it really won't matter what you're listening to.

And that's the best BBC radio can come up with. For two and a half hours of prime time listening most mornings.

In detail:

‘Lighter pieces' at 00.06, 00.37, 01.07, 02.02, 02.22; interspersed with a movement of Beethoven’s 7th, a bit of Handel’s Water Music, Hummel’s trumpet concerto (part), a bit of Tchaikovsky’s violin concerto, Libiamo from La Traviata. The Dvořák was Prague Waltzes rather than Slavonic Dances.

This is simply my personal viewpoint: I fully accept that some people are satisfied with this.

[ahinton]

a vocalist singing 'Wunderbar' from Kiss Me Kate...

"A tenor sang; (no)...

a baritone singing 'So in Love' from Kiss Me Kate

Wonderful music by the great Cole Porter, but on an R3 programme? Why? I'd listen to either with pleasure provided that they did not form part of a programme where they're arguably out of place and provided also that they weren't introduced by Ms Derham, who for me is well less than Wunderbar, with whom I am anything but in love and by whom I would most certainly not wish to be kissed...

[antongould]

Bank Holiday Skellers .........

[Stanfordian]

"A tenor sang; (no)...
Wonderful music by the great Cole Porter, but on an R3 programme? Why? I'd listen to either with pleasure provided that they did not form part of a programme where they're arguably out of place and provided also that they weren't introduced by Ms Derham, who for me is well less than Wunderbar, with whom I am anything but in love and by whom I would most certainly not wish to be kissed...

I suppose in theory we should be hearing much less of Ms Derham on Radio 3 when she goes into training as a celeb in 'Strictly Come Dancing'.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I suppose in theory we should be hearing much less of Ms Derham on Radio 3 when she goes into training as a celeb in 'Strictly Come Dancing'.

Not necessarily - part of the "fluff" surrounding Strictly involves following the contestants around telling viewers how all their many hours of practice is done in addition to their "normal" day jobs. Soap actors don't reduce their appearances in their "continuing dramas", sportstypes carry on training, newsreaders continue to give as many news readings as ever - so we shouldn't build up our hopes that those over-emphasized non-English words, the irritating chuckle in the delivery and the naff scripts will be reduced in the short term. (We may even be treated to an item being introduced by Zoë Ball.)

What may happen, is that following her increased profile, KD might be offered opportunities elsewhere in the media that make it impossible for her to meet her obligations to R3.



(Has she ever presented R3's Breakfast?)

[french frank]

I suppose in theory we should be hearing much less of Ms Derham on Radio 3 when she goes into training as a celeb in 'Strictly Come Dancing'.

She may be Rob's guest on Essential Classics.

(Has she ever presented R3's Breakfast?)

I don't remember it, though I'm sure I've read, on some publicity-type blurb, that she had been a Breakfast presenter.

Wiki quote: 'Derham is a presenter of Radio 3's Afternoon on 3 and Breakfast programmes.' Perhaps under a pseudonym?

[ahinton]

Not necessarily - part of the "fluff" surrounding Strictly involves following the contestants around telling viewers how all their many hours of practice is done in addition to their "normal" day jobs. Soap actors don't reduce their appearances in their "continuing dramas", sportstypes carry on training, newsreaders continue to give as many news readings as ever - so we shouldn't build up our hopes that those over-emphasized non-English words, the irritating chuckle in the delivery and the naff scripts will be reduced in the short term. (We may even be treated to an item being introduced by Zoë Ball.)

All sadly true (well, apart, perhaps, from the last bit!). The only question that I would raise about KN's presentation is the same as I've done, in the interests of fairness, with others, namely "who writes those scripts?" (and, as a corollary, if and/or when it's not the presenters, how much licence do those presenters nevertheless have - or seize - to mess around with them in their own ways?).

What may happen, is that following her increased profile, KD might be offered opportunities elsewhere in the media that make it impossible for her to meet her obligations to R3.

Possibly, but would that be a sacrifice worth making, do you think? The fact that she might have less presence on R3 but far more elsewhere might end up meaning that people who can't stand her manner and matter of presentation would find themslves obliged to listen to R3 in order to escape its sheer ubiquity! Actually, that might be a rather neat idea to swell its audiences!...

That said, if KD ever does do Strictly, she might fall over (in fact it's surprising to me that more contestants don't do that at one time or another).