The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Penn Igor]

I have to say as one who has in the past stated that weekend Breakfast is ok I must qualify that it is if Martin Handley is presenting. I have been travelling and while laying in bed this morning turned on Breakfast. Unfortunately, for me MH is not presenting instead we have Tom McKinney..... I did listen a bit to hear Scance's Stabat Mater as Maria Christina Kiehr was the soloist but then came the Howells. Hearing a relative stump up that the works of her aunt were not recognised and then to hear the so called concerto to realise why they were not played was enough. I shut off and put on the CD player.

Please see my comments earlier today. Yes, this was a truly awful piece by Howell (Howells).

[HARRIET HAVARD]

Have been reading a few favourable comments about the weekend editions of Breakfast on the forum recently, so, thought I would give it another chance this morning. (Needless to say I have given up on the Monday to Friday shows). But, oh dear. Tuned in just after eight. There was some woman going on and on about her aunt, Dorothy Howell (Howells?), having been one of the great undiscovered composers of the 20th. Century. I stuck with it though, as it was obvious they would eventually play something by said Howell (Howells?). They did. It was a movement of a so called "piano concerto". While it may have passed as background music for a fifties B movie, difficult to see, even in these "dumbed down" times at R3 how this ever got on air. While I am sure there are still numerous masterpieces out there to be discovered, I would guess there are far more that are undiscovered for good reason. This was one of them.

I must agree with you Penn. The words barrell scraping were never more appropriate.

[french frank]

While it may have passed as background music for a fifties B movie, difficult to see, even in these "dumbed down" times at R3 how this ever got on air.

That fits in, interestingly (to me) with a view that I've formed. Whereas in the past informed production staff chose the music, putting together coherent programmes (is that false memory?), with today's R3 what drives the choices far, far too often is that someone somewhere would like a piece to be played on the station. It may be a listener texting, tweeting or phoning in, it may be a celebrity guest or presenter choosing My Favourite Music. Or, on the other hand, it might have been chosen to introduce a plug for the evening's concert - a piece by the same performer or composer. Then again, it may be an anniversary or recent death. There just has to be a peg to hang it on. If only they could put together a programme that has been carefully 'curated' (oops! I forgot: Breakfast is carefully 'curated'). I think producers/editors take responsibility (and credit) when choices are usually made on musical/artistic grounds.

[JFLL]

That's interesting. I wouldn't, because I actually expect something illuminating in the words of Radio 3 presenters. .... To me it is absolutely fundamental to what Radio 3 is (that doesn't have to mean learned lectures over breakfast - just not 'inanities': there must be something in between).

Yes, I'm afraid I can't remember what was said by presenters (or rather 'announcers') in those days. It would be nice if we had a few transcripts of programmes to remind us -- though younger listeners might now think it was delivered in too 'plummy' tones, which wouldn't be apparent in a transcript. But my 'personal impression' (sorry, Doversoul!) is that it was fairly factual, and I'm certain that it wasn't irritating and/or inane. It may even have been illuminating. You don't have to ramble on to be illuminating, you just have to choose your words carefully and (in my view) succinctly -- and of course to know your stuff or be well-briefed.

If all I wanted was to hear music I liked, I could go to other resources now, online and personal.

I guess most of us here do that, but one of the good things about the old Breakfast was that you'd hear many a piece you wouldn't necessarily search out yourself and didn't know you liked, but you might after hearing it there, and would then search it out elsewehere. Sorry, this is rather an obvious point, I know, and maybe if I stuck with Breakfast this might still happen, but I'd guess far less often than thirty years ago.

[muzzer]

This weekend's presenter is a professional musician. Is that a good thing......?

[mercia]

in her time Dorothy Howell seems to have been well thought of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Howell

[Suffolkcoastal]

I'd heard of Dorothy Howell. Just had a listen to that movement, and I can only concur with the general opinion here that it's pretty dire stuff, talking about scraping the barrel, it's made a hole in the bottom! Full of cliched pianistic gestures, not really any thematic substance, appalling orchestration, and plenty of directionless meandering. They should have played Lamia, but 15 minutes is far too long for 'Breakfast'. Lamia is certainly more interesting and to be honest its hard to imagine its by the same composer. Much better orchestration, clearly under the spell of impressionism and also rather Bax like at times (is there an RAM style of the period perhaps?), though it does like wander around searching for a direction at times. It was performed at the 2010 Proms.

[french frank]

This weekend's presenter is a professional musician. Is that a good thing......?

Some while back RW said that the idea was to copy the example of sports commentators being professional sportsmen. I don't think it takes much to see where the analogy is inappropriate. In the first place, the musician may be hugely knowledgeable about the music which has come within their own professional experience while knowing little about anything else. A programme focused on their area (as a footballer discusses football) might very well be good. Otherwise, there's no particular reason to think they know much about the general classical repertoire - and might know considerably less than the listener who has a wide experience of concert-going and record buying. Second point, they may just be poor broadcasters (I won't quote the email I received this morning where a listener explained why he switched off ...).

[Stanfordian]

I must agree with you Penn. The words barrell scraping were never more appropriate.

Hiya HH,

I think for the most part that poorly crafted music with little to say will be seen for what it is and remain ignored.

[teamsaint]

I'd heard of Dorothy Howell. Just had a listen to that movement, and I can only concur with the general opinion here that it's pretty dire stuff, talking about scraping the barrel, it's made a hole in the bottom! Full of cliched pianistic gestures, not really any thematic substance, appalling orchestration, and plenty of directionless meandering. They should have played Lamia, but 15 minutes is far too long for 'Breakfast'. Lamia is certainly more interesting and to be honest its hard to imagine its by the same composer. Much better orchestration, clearly under the spell of impressionism and also rather Bax like at times (is there an RAM style of the period perhaps?), though it does like wander around searching for a direction at times. It was performed at the 2010 Proms.

Had a listen to both, (although stopped listening to the concerto,) and got interrupted during Lamia,
Lamia strikes me as well worth hearing again........

for those interested, the concerto is on youtube and when I had a listen had previously had 2 listens in the 2 years since it was put up,

[Flay]

That's interesting. I wouldn't, because I actually expect something illuminating in the words of Radio 3 presenters. If all I wanted was to hear music I liked, I could go to other resources now, online and personal. To me it is absolutely fundamental to what Radio 3 is (that doesn't have to mean learned lectures over breakfast - just not 'inanities': there must be something in between).

No matter how much we complain, have the programmes not been contracted with specific criteria that include feedback, listener participation etc? Until that contract expires this independent provider is obliged to broadcast the present content, like it or not!

[french frank]

No matter how much we complain, have the programmes not been contracted with specific criteria that include feedback, listener participation etc? Until that contract expires this independent provider is obliged to broadcast the present content, like it or not!

Mmm? Contracted to whom? Breakfast isn't produced by an independent (unlike Essential Classics). But in any case, the commissioning briefs are Radio 3 telling the indy what it wants. I doubt there would be much difficulty in changing the format - any indy would bear in mind that it would hope its contract would be renewed when it did expire ...

[Flay]

Mmm? Contracted to whom? Breakfast isn't produced by an independent (unlike Essential Classics). But in any case, the commissioning briefs are Radio 3 telling the indy what it wants. I doubt there would be much difficulty in changing the format - any indy would bear in mind that it would hope its contract would be renewed when it did expire ...

Thanks, ff. I thought Breakfast was also an independent programme. Perhaps this explains why Essential Classics is stuck as it is. But hopefully from tomorrow when the new man starts....

[french frank]

But hopefully from tomorrow when the new man starts....

Must let him get settled with his feet under the table first ... The listener survey will leave him in no doubt as to what this segment of the audience likes and hates - all in due course, of course.

Essential Classics produces exactly what Radio 3 asked it to do when it originally went out to tender.

[Penn Igor]

Must let him get settled with his feet under the table first ... The listener survey will leave him in no doubt as to what this segment of the audience likes and hates - all in due course, of course.

Essential Classics produces exactly what Radio 3 asked it to do when it originally went out to tender.

Well, the signs aren't good so far, are they. This morning, the Warsaw Concerto on Breakfast. And the musak from the St. Trinians film on EC.