The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[LMcD]

"Führer" is now probably less difficult for many English to pronounce (and the Welsh, for that matter) than it once was, given the younger generations' propensity for pronouncing "you" as if it were spelt "yü", the way of most Scots. I don't think our inability to pronounce Ravel's name with the R rolled from the back of the throat is in the same league of mispronunciation as pronouncing Bach's name as Bark - after all none of us "gutteralise" the name of Paris. My biggest bugbear for habitual wrong pronunciations is Van Gogh - it's that same "soft k" which people don't seem to like, or however one would describe it.

David Hockney admitted he had problems with the pronunciation of Van Gogh in his very interesting recent BBC4 programme on 'Cafe Terrace At Night'. 'Van Go' is good news if you're delivering stuff from Amazon.
Earlier generations learned the correct pronunciation of 'Fuehrer' (sorry, can't do umlauts!) from Spike Jones and Tommy Handley.

[vinteuil]

I know this is nit-picking; and I know that I am biased by being a German speaker; but after all these years at the microphone introducing 'classical' music, Petroc (of whom I generally approve) still massacres the pronunciation of German composers and works. Today, Für Elise*: the first word is für, with an umlaut which changes the pronunciation, so it is not the same as the English word fur as in the coat of an animal.

... eight years ago Gurnemanz noted another announcer's incompetence with the umlaut -

It is surprising that an announcer on a classical music station does not take the trouble to be familiar with even the simplest elements of German pronunciation. This morning Sarah Walker ignored the umlaut on the Tölzer Knabenchor. Presumably she would not mispronounce better-known occurrences such as with the conductor, Karl Böhm, composer, Schönberg, or the song, Erlkönig. It is surely not a difficult pronunciation rule to master.

.

[french frank]

Did the R3 presenters (announcers?) of the past do any better on the French/German/other languages pronunciation front?

This is a question that has come up before. As a(n-ex) language specialist, I think that approximations are absolutely fine. I don't expect many non-native speakers to have a perfect accent. But some attempts are just WRONG WRONG WRONG (wrongly placed straes, for example) and so is the assumption that if it's all right for English it'll probably be all right for French and German. There are tricks to articulating vowels and consonants that we don't have in English and approximations that are 'in the right direction' will do for me.

[oddoneout]

My bugbear is Messyan when it’s en as in enfant.

Re Fü
For some reason the British get Führer right - perhaps because it’s usually spoken by German actors in war films.
I wonder how far you go. No one in this country really sounds the ACH in Bach like the Germans or indeed pronounce Ravel with that distinct Ra sound the French get.,,

And it's just as well there is virtually no need to attempt Dutch...

[Serial_Apologist]

My bugbear is Messyan when it’s en as in enfant.

Re Fü
For some reason the British get Führer right - perhaps because it’s usually spoken by German actors in war films.
I wonder how far you go. No one in this country really sounds the ACH in Bach like the Germans or indeed pronounce Ravel with that distinct Ra sound the French get.,,

"Führer" is now probably less difficult for many English to pronounce (and the Welsh, for that matter) than it once was, given the younger generations' propensity for pronouncing "you" as if it were spelt "yü", the way of most Scots. I don't think our inability to pronounce Ravel's name with the R rolled from the back of the throat is in the same league of mispronunciation as pronouncing Bach's name as Bark - after all none of us "gutteralise" the name of Paris. My biggest bugbear for habitual wrong pronunciations is Van Gogh - it's that same "soft k" which people don't seem to like, or however one would describe it.

[hmvman]

Did the R3 presenters (announcers?) of the past do any better on the French/German/other languages pronunciation front?

[Ein Heldenleben]

I know this is nit-picking; and I know that I am biased by being a German speaker; but after all these years at the microphone introducing 'classical' music, Petroc (of whom I generally approve) still massacres the pronunciation of German composers and works. Today, Für Elise*: the first word is für, with an umlaut which changes the pronunciation, so it is not the same as the English word fur as in the coat of an animal. And they still send him to Wien to introduce the New Year's day concert....! It would take him less than a working day to study this matter and get it right.

*Edit: actually Für Elise in Ragtime: but that's no excuse!

My bugbear is Messyan when it’s en as in enfant.

Re Fü
For some reason the British get Führer right - perhaps because it’s usually spoken by German actors in war films.
I wonder how far you go. No one in this country really sounds the ACH in Bach like the Germans or indeed pronounce Ravel with that distinct Ra sound the French get.,,

[vinteuil]

I know this is nit-picking; and I know that I am biased by being a German speaker; but after all these years at the microphone introducing 'classical' music, Petroc (of whom I generally approve) still massacres the pronunciation of German composers and works...

... you think his German pronunciation is dire - have you heard him massacring French?!



.

[kernelbogey]

If you don't want to hear the result, switch off NOW ... In fact ...

I know this is nit-picking; and I know that I am biased by being a German speaker; but after all these years at the microphone introducing 'classical' music, Petroc (of whom I generally approve) still massacres the pronunciation of German composers and works. Today, Für Elise*: the first word is für, with an umlaut which changes the pronunciation, so it is not the same as the English word fur as in the coat of an animal. And they still send him to Wien to introduce the New Year's day concert....! It would take him less than a working day to study this matter and get it right.

*Edit: actually Für Elise in Ragtime: but that's no excuse!

[french frank]

Petroc was very careful to do the spoiler alert when reporting the result of the YM finals, but rather undermined it by playing the winner performing something from an earlier round and then back announcing it with the information that the player was the winner...

If you don't want to hear the result, switch off NOW ... In fact ...

[oddoneout]

Petroc was very careful to do the spoiler alert when reporting the result of the YM finals, but rather undermined it by playing the winner performing something from an earlier round and then back announcing it with the information that the player was the winner...

[LMcD]

Yes, ironically I had to wait for the start of Radio 3 to hear it at all!

The Bean/Boult has for so long been regarded as the classic recording that listeners may imagine they'd been playing it together for years, but in fact when Sir Adrian asked Hugh Bean to record it he said he didn't know it and had to learn it for the session.

First recorded in 1928, with 78 rpm sets being issued in the 1940s and early 1950s.

[smittims]

Yes, ironically I had to wait for the start of Radio 3 to hear it at all!

The Bean/Boult has for so long been regarded as the classic recording that listeners may imagine they'd been playing it together for years, but in fact when Sir Adrian asked Hugh Bean to record it he said he didn't know it and had to learn it for the session.

[hmvman]

... I can remember a time when there was no available recording in the UK, (between the deletion of Boult 1 and the issue of Boult 2.)

I hadn't realised that was the situation at one time. Seems absolutely incredible now!

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, I don't know what you know but I don't think that's a fair description of the piece. There is more to it than that: the middle section for instance. And I think the apparently static nature of the work is intentional , as is , for instance,the second movement of Beethoven's violin concerto: they're both about 'being' rather than 'becoming'.

My interpretation as well: VW's idea of what music could be expressing were it not for the complexity of his and our hyper-mediated, hyper-complex age, which he (and other great 20th century mystically-inclined artists) confronted elsewhere in his music.