The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[french frank]

In fairness, then:

If you were listening between 7.18 and 7.30 you would have heard the RVW and the Lazzari. The Britten was on between 7.53 and 8am and if you were listening between 8.10 and 8.16 you'd have caught the Tomkins. (I could have mentioned other pieces that I didn't think much of, but others might have done).

[Don Petter]

I think the fact that the Tomkins, Lazzari and Vaughan Williams items were drowned somewhere within the list which ff did give adds weight to her argument, rather than the reverse?

[french frank]

I think the fact that the Tomkins, Lazzari and Vaughan Williams items were drowned somewhere within the list which ff did give adds weight to her argument, rather than the reverse?

I was very surprised that it should have been thought that the intention was to suggest that that was the complete playlist. The point, to me, was that those were 16 pieces all played within the same 2 1/2 hours.

[underthecountertenor]

I was very surprised that it should have been thought that the intention was to suggest that that was the complete playlist. The point, to me, was that those were 16 pieces all played within the same 2 1/2 hours.

This strikes me as disingenuous, given your failure to say anything at all about what the list was meant to represent. If that was your point, why didn't you say so? Don Petter's suggestion that the items were not mentioned 'were drowned somewhere within the list which ff did give' makes no sense. They weren't in the list that ff did give at all, even though they were played. This doesn't add weight to her argument because that wasn't the argument she was (originally) advancing. It might be a valid argument, but that's another matter. My point was about fair presentation of the facts, as against Daily Maily suppression of the inconvenient. I think I made it clear in my post that I sympathise with the general point being made about Breakfast, particularly under the aegis of SMP.

Still, I should know better, clearly.

[french frank]

Then you don't take the point that this thread is, specifically, about the Breakfast programme (and the running controversy - the 'Eternal Debate'), that it was started pretty much when this forum was started as a continuation of the Breakfast thread on the old boards - over three years(?) ago. And - in your words - 'best not mention' my final comment which was, in fairness, intended to see things from both sides of the fence: that such items would be very satisfying for some people and not for others. Yes, I did honestly think that that comment would make it clear that those 16 items were included in a single Breakfast programme (subject of thread); and that mentioning the minority of pieces (the other third) which were a cut above would hardly have changed the overall picture - that it suggested (at least to me) a pretty unimaginative selection. So perhaps I'm the one who 'should know better'.

This strikes me as disingenuous, given your failure to say anything at all about what the list was meant to represent. If that was your point, why didn't you say so? Don Petter's suggestion that the items were not mentioned 'were drowned somewhere within the list which ff did give' makes no sense. They weren't in the list that ff did give at all, even though they were played. This doesn't add weight to her argument because that wasn't the argument she was (originally) advancing. It might be a valid argument, but that's another matter. My point was about fair presentation of the facts, as against Daily Maily suppression of the inconvenient. I think I made it clear in my post that I sympathise with the general point being made about Breakfast, particularly under the aegis of SMP.

Still, I should know better, clearly.

[underthecountertenor]

The tone of your final comment didn't suggest to me that it was intended to see things from both sides of the fence. The use of the word 'deemed' and the inverted commas around 'broaden the horizons' suggested to me that this was intended as a criticism of the powers that be at Radio 3 who have taken it upon themselves to define such concepts as broadening horizons. Given the context of these message boards, to which you have yourself referred, I don't think that's an unfair reading on my part. Nor, I say again, do I necessarily disagree with the thrust of the argument.

As to the rest of your explanation, it reinforces my impression that this is really a forum for preaching to the converted. If you haven't been with these boards from day 1 and before, you may not understand the context and you are therefore more likely to be misled. Best stay away.

[french frank]

The quotes around 'broaden the horizons' was because it was, indeed a direct quote from Radio 3's service licence (in fact, now I've checked, it says 'expand their cultural horizons'. But perhaps it's best that we part as regards this topic, feeling slightly ruffled on both sides?

[underthecountertenor]

OK!

[Sir Velo]

I don't think there's any need to give a complete playlist when commenting on the paucity of imagination shown in the programme's selections; however, it may be useful to add a rider, e.g.: "included among today's pieces were the following...", otherwise you run the risk of having the programme's defenders claim that you are distorting the facts for purposes of your argument.

Breakfast is a travesty of a serious (or entertaining, for that matter) classical music programme. However, despite dwindling audience numbers and amid huge dissatisfaction from long term R3 listeners, as various recent pronouncments on Radio 3's Facebook page have made clear, "the lady ain't for turning".

[antongould]

Please don't stay away under as a member of a minority of about 4 on the other side of this Eternal Debate ....I feel we need all the understanding we can get.

On the SMP debate I am in a minority of One!

[underthecountertenor]

Thanks, anton! Don't go changin'!

[french frank]

Please don't stay away under as a member of a minority of about 4 on the other side of this Eternal Debate ....I feel we need all the understanding we can get.

On the SMP debate I am in a minority of One!

I felt like adding that it's by no means 'preaching to the converted' here (nor should it be: it's about the expression of opinions, though they differ). I do tender my profuse apologies for giving a misleading impression: however, some people only mention one piece (e.g. 'That's the 76th performance of Dvorak's Slavonic Dances this year'; 'La Valse again this morning' etc). Nevertheless

[Suffolkcoastal]

One point I've noticed since I've been surveying R3s output, though not specifically applying to Breakfast, but across the playlist programmes spectrum, is that the amount of non-'classical' music played in programmes that are normally largely 'classical' in content increases around the time of the Proms, it has been especially noticeable in the last couple of years. Another effort to entice those to the Station, who wouldn't be considered standard R3 listeners because of the higher profile the Proms brings to the Station?

[teamsaint]

One point I've noticed since I've been surveying R3s output, though not specifically applying to Breakfast, but across the playlist programmes spectrum, is that the amount of non-'classical' music played in programmes that are normally largely 'classical' in content increases around the time of the Proms, it has been especially noticeable in the last couple of years. Another effort to entice those to the Station, who wouldn't be considered standard R3 listeners because of the higher profile the Proms brings to the Station?

well if that worked, and people were attracted to listening to a variety of Proms concerts instead of CFM in the evening, then that might be defensible.

Well observed, in any case, SC !!

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm enjoying the way 'Breakfast' has been slightly hoist on the petard of the current 3-a-day 'Proms Artist recommends' gimm..., er... concept (a selected Proms artist chooses 3 works, one each for playing on 'Breakfast', 'Essential Classics' and 'In Tune' respectively, for non R3 listeners )

Several people have chosen wildly non-'Breakfast' fare - I'm currently enjoying some Myaskovsky, thanks to Vladimir Jurowski (OK, so it's only the last movement of his 27th Symphony.... but STILL... !!! )

For 'Breakfast', Antoni Wit chose the Alpine (Alpen.... yeah yeah ) Symphony and Kiril Karabits chose Shostakovich 11