The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Ein Heldenleben]

It certainly is cyclical, unless you prefer the Yeatsian image of the gyres, i.e. a repeating pattern that never quite comes full circle, as evoked at the end of Midsummer Marriage. And "progress" is indeed not always improvement: that assertion is one of the most harmful made by the prevailing, arrogant presentism.

Most of the arts are indeed moribund, within the declining West; and that itself might be a symptom, rather than a cause, of the equally strong decline in the quality of popular culture. Without a strong popular culture, there can be no "high art". In the UK we have precious little of either which speaks to us directly, with popular music (Beatles included) having been reliant on American models (and accents) since the mid-1950s. And despite the current political winds of change, there is no sign of our chronic cultural, transatlantic dependence ending anytime soon.

Aside from all that, your "touch of the button" is of course the root of the problem. We no longer have to make our own music, art - or even our dinner. And this diminishes us. Just as it has diminished Radio 3.

I would agree with you about the vital links between “high” and popular culture. The Vienna of Haydn and Mozart was one alive with music of all sorts - the street bands that influenced both composers. I would take issue with the casual dismissal of the Beatles and “American “ influence. Yes a lot of their music is Blues based ( and the better for it) but they also drew from Tavener , Stockhausen, Music concrete (Sgt Pepper ) , Indian Classical music British / Irish folk music (throughout) the English modalists (Eleanor Rigby ), Music Hall (when I’m sixty four ). In short it would be hard to think of a band that had a wider range of influences, Peter Townsend of the Who has acknowledged his debt to Holst - their work is full of modal chord sequences.
Of course nie we have the harmonically unvarying monotony of rap and the four chord repetitive wonders of Taylor Swift .

[oddoneout]

I've noticed this decline in the 'new' music played on Radio 3, which is so often 'old' music re-gurgitated: repetitious cliches of diatonic melody and tonal harmony, often referencing still older music. I'd love to think that somewhere there are composers who are producing genuinely creative and imaginative work, which is being ignored by Radio 3 because, as it seems, Sam Jackson doesn't like atonal music; there's been a big reduction in even 100-year-old music since he took over.

Music written for a mass audience to generate airtime and thus income, rather than a free expression of the composer's creative inspiration - or lack of. I haven't read the whole article but I wonder if the same issues apply in the world of 'classical'.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/mar/09/spotify-algorithm-artists-music-musicians-money-songs-playlists

The requirement to be all things to all listeners can't help either - lowest common denominator comes into play, to the detriment of all.

I don't think SJ is keen on Classical either, and as for Baroque and Early - forget it.

[LMcD]

Yes. Try searching for even such a significant musical creator as "Alan Rawsthorne" in BBC Sounds. Instructive.

William Alwyn also seems to be another victim of a wilful neglect of British composers.

[oddoneout]

This realisation came as a bit of a ( slow motion) shock to me some while back.As a History student I should have known better I suppose. Not sure exactly when it started , but possibly triggered by the Iraq war.
One of the disappointing things about contemporary life is the generational warfare being waged by large sections of the media ( and I don’t mean just The Mail) the fallout from which may well include cultural impoverishment .

Advances in AI are going to be a further issue for the arts. If I was in charge, 6th form and Uni students would have compulsory lessons in, among other things, how to deal with cultural over- abundance. The change from music being expensive and hard to access to the current situation has happened far too quickly for comfort.

And arguably still hasn't addressed the existing issues of access, participation, earnings etc etc.

[Master Jacques]

I've noticed this decline in the 'new' music played on Radio 3, which is so often 'old' music re-gurgitated: repetitious cliches of diatonic melody and tonal harmony, often referencing still older music. I'd love to think that somewhere there are composers who are producing genuinely creative and imaginative work, which is being ignored by Radio 3 because, as it seems, Sam Jackson doesn't like atonal music; there's been a big reduction in even 100-year-old music since he took over.

Yes. Try searching for even such a significant musical creator as "Alan Rawsthorne" in BBC Sounds. Instructive.

[smittims]

I've noticed this decline in the 'new' music played on Radio 3, which is so often 'old' music re-gurgitated: repetitious cliches of diatonic melody and tonal harmony, often referencing still older music. I'd love to think that somewhere there are composers who are producing genuinely creative and imaginative work, which is being ignored by Radio 3 because, as it seems, Sam Jackson doesn't like atonal music; there's been a big reduction in even 100-year-old music since he took over.

[Master Jacques]

I wonder whether it all goes in phases or cycles . We tend make the Enlightment assumption that everything constantly improves . It doesn’t. Cultures decline , libraries are burnt , cities are sacked. Then seemingly new things emerge , new talents, it’s just that there aren’t that many around at the moment. Even popular culture is in massive decline. Taylor Swift is massively less musically interesting than the Beatles.
. We live in a time of cultural abundance - everything available at the touch of a button - but with so much rubbish to sift through,

It certainly is cyclical, unless you prefer the Yeatsian image of the gyres, i.e. a repeating pattern that never quite comes full circle, as evoked at the end of Midsummer Marriage. And "progress" is indeed not always improvement: that assertion is one of the most harmful made by the prevailing, arrogant presentism.

Most of the arts are indeed moribund, within the declining West; and that itself might be a symptom, rather than a cause, of the equally strong decline in the quality of popular culture. Without a strong popular culture, there can be no "high art". In the UK we have precious little of either which speaks to us directly, with popular music (Beatles included) having been reliant on American models (and accents) since the mid-1950s. And despite the current political winds of change, there is no sign of our chronic cultural, transatlantic dependence ending anytime soon.

Aside from all that, your "touch of the button" is of course the root of the problem. We no longer have to make our own music, art - or even our dinner. And this diminishes us. Just as it has diminished Radio 3.

[Serial_Apologist]

This realisation came as a bit of a ( slow motion) shock to me some while back.As a History student I should have known better I suppose. Not sure exactly when it started , but possibly triggered by the Iraq war.
One of the disappointing things about contemporary life is the generational warfare being waged by large sections of the media ( and I don’t mean just The Mail) the fallout from which may well include cultural impoverishment .

Advances in AI are going to be a further issue for the arts. If I was in charge, 6th form and Uni students would have compulsory lessons in, among other things, how to deal with cultural over- abundance. The change from music being expensive and hard to access to the current situation has happened far too quickly for comfort.

I see that a college professor has written a book on The Future as a Political Idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At2G-BI44jo

[teamsaint]

I wonder whether it all goes in phases or cycles . We tend make the Enlightment assumption that everything constantly improves . It doesn’t. Cultures decline , libraries are burnt , cities are sacked. Then seemingly new things emerge , new talents, it’s just that there aren’t that many around at the moment. Even popular culture is in massive decline. Taylor Swift is massively less musically interesting than the Beatles.
. We live in a time of cultural abundance - everything available at the touch of a button - but with so much rubbish to sift through,

This realisation came as a bit of a ( slow motion) shock to me some while back.As a History student I should have known better I suppose. Not sure exactly when it started , but possibly triggered by the Iraq war.
One of the disappointing things about contemporary life is the generational warfare being waged by large sections of the media ( and I don’t mean just The Mail) the fallout from which may well include cultural impoverishment .

Advances in AI are going to be a further issue for the arts. If I was in charge, 6th form and Uni students would have compulsory lessons in, among other things, how to deal with cultural over- abundance. The change from music being expensive and hard to access to the current situation has happened far too quickly for comfort.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There is much wisdom in all that you say, Ein Heldenleben. I increasingly feel myself to be like the Venerable Bead, confined to my cell surrounded by the entire high culture of the Known World, while the barbarians get ever closer to the doors of the great cathedral.

The trouble is, that in about forty years time (in this country, at least) there simply won't be a large enough body of people around with your training and deep knowledge - so different from the infinite information on offer - to keep the torch burning for a 'high art' which will have all but disappeared. One look at the BBC Website's "Culture" page (celebrity gossip and pop awards) rather suggests that this has already happened. Soon enough even reading the written word will be an elitist pursuit, confined to a small ruling class.

That's why we have to fight some sort of rearguard action now, on behalf of the generation to come, for our own consciences at least. A good slew of complaints letters to the BBC at least lets Auntie know that there are concerned people, who have noticed the appalling decline in standards, and won't merely throw up their hands and accept this tragedy with supine good grace.

I wonder whether it all goes in phases or cycles . We tend make the Enlightment assumption that everything constantly improves . It doesn’t. Cultures decline , libraries are burnt , cities are sacked. Then seemingly new things emerge , new talents, it’s just that there aren’t that many around at the moment. Even popular culture is in massive decline. Taylor Swift is massively less musically interesting than the Beatles.
. We live in a time of cultural abundance - everything available at the touch of a button - but with so much rubbish to sift through,

[Master Jacques]

What you’ve said could just as easily be applied to its TV Arts , Science and History output . The dumbing down is palpable and extraordinary. The same is true of course of C4 and ITV -though in the latter case from a lower base level in quantity . Does this reflect our contemporary culture ? I suspect the same is true in education. The TV producers and Conmissioners of today have little cultural hinterland The paradox is that it’s never been easier to access high culture . You can buy the complete Henry James on Kindle for less than a Penguin classic of Portrait Of A Lady . I’ve retreated like many into a world of reading literature , going to the Opera , playing the piano with Radio 3 background music for the daily bid to pay for it all. The idea of some things are being better than others has died and with that the entire point of editorially moderated media. We are all out own series editors . Luckily having done it for twenty years I’m reasonably skilled at it .

There is much wisdom in all that you say, Ein Heldenleben. I increasingly feel myself to be like the Venerable Bead, confined to my cell surrounded by the entire high culture of the Known World, while the barbarians get ever closer to the doors of the great cathedral.

The trouble is, that in about forty years time (in this country, at least) there simply won't be a large enough body of people around with your training and deep knowledge - so different from the infinite information on offer - to keep the torch burning for a 'high art' which will have all but disappeared. One look at the BBC Website's "Culture" page (celebrity gossip and pop awards) rather suggests that this has already happened. Soon enough even reading the written word will be an elitist pursuit, confined to a small ruling class.

That's why we have to fight some sort of rearguard action now, on behalf of the generation to come, for our own consciences at least. A good slew of complaints letters to the BBC at least lets Auntie know that there are concerned people, who have noticed the appalling decline in standards, and won't merely throw up their hands and accept this tragedy with supine good grace.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's decades since Radio 3 dropped all programming directly aimed at children and adolescents, unless we count Jess Gillam. On the other hand, nearly all programming these days is aimed at the ailing and infantile, which is rather a different case.

If I want to give my European friends an example of how our country has lost its way, I offer them a quick run down of Radio 3 over the last two decades. Loss of funding, cultural bullying from ignorant outsiders placed inside the tent, and diminishing support for anything remotely resembling "high art" in a populist-orientated establishment, have between them resulted in total loss of confidence in what the channel is supposed to be doing.

I honestly don't think any of the station's senior management have the remotest idea of what they can do. They hope that keeping the Proms going, like some sort of rotting zombie on speed, will give people the idea that all is rosy in the garden. It does no such thing. Otherwise, it's playlists, playlists all the way. And axe anything they can get away with. The fewer complete works broadcast, the better.

Radio 3 has gradually become a national embarrassment, compared to the competition in almost any other European country - no matter how fiscally challenged - which we'd care to name.

What you’ve said could just as easily be applied to its TV Arts , Science and History output . The dumbing down is palpable and extraordinary. The same is true of course of
C4 and ITV -though in the latter case from a lower base level in quantity . Does this reflect our contemporary culture ? I suspect the same is true in education. The TV producers and Conmissioners of today have little cultural hinterland The paradox is that it’s never been easier to access high culture . You can buy the complete Henry James on Kindle for less than a Penguin classic of Portrait Of A Lady . I’ve retreated like many into a world of reading literature , going to the Opera , playing the piano with Radio 3 background music for the daily bid to pay for it all.
The idea of some things are being better than others has died and with that the entire point of editorially moderated media. We are all out own series editors . Luckily having done it for twenty years I’m reasonably skilled at it .

[french frank]

They hope that keeping the Proms going, like some sort of rotting zombie on speed, will give people the idea that all is rosy in the garden.

Florence and the Machine? Sam Smith? Now you're talking, MJ. Proms it is. Safe in their hands.

[Master Jacques]

They are an issue if Radio 3 makes the problem even worse by reneging on its ostensible remit.

But you are so right in respect of what you say in the remainder of your post. Undiscriminated access to "all there is", even assuming the inquisitive have not already been nobbled by algorhythmic "choice", is tantamount to showing a child all the cooked meal alternatives that exist in the world, telling them this is your previously unprecedented range for selecting what you need to know, and then offering them Radio 3.

It's decades since Radio 3 dropped all programming directly aimed at children and adolescents, unless we count Jess Gillam. On the other hand, nearly all programming these days is aimed at the ailing and infantile, which is rather a different case.

If I want to give my European friends an example of how our country has lost its way, I offer them a quick run down of Radio 3 over the last two decades. Loss of funding, cultural bullying from ignorant outsiders placed inside the tent, and diminishing support for anything remotely resembling "high art" in a populist-orientated establishment, have between them resulted in total loss of confidence in what the channel is supposed to be doing.

I honestly don't think any of the station's senior management have the remotest idea of what they can do. They hope that keeping the Proms going, like some sort of rotting zombie on speed, will give people the idea that all is rosy in the garden. It does no such thing. Otherwise, it's playlists, playlists all the way. And axe anything they can get away with. The fewer complete works broadcast, the better.

Radio 3 has gradually become a national embarrassment, compared to the competition in almost any other European country - no matter how fiscally challenged - which we'd care to name.

[Serial_Apologist]

I can't help thinking that the removal of music from 'education' combined with the multiplicity of choice available in terms of ways to hear hasn't helped improve the situation. I rather think it may well have made things worse. If pupils don't hear music in schools let alone have the chance to participate in music making then they miss an opportunity to find out about alternatives to what they hear everyday. By the same token, the enormous range of music available digitally now doesn't lead in my view to an exposure to different types of music, in fact I suspect it is the opposite. Influencers, algorithms, social media all seem to limit options that are fed to the listener and, I suspect, have the effect of gradually blocking out any curiosity about alternatives.
I realise that there were barriers to accessing 'classical' music in the 'good old days' - pupils in secondary modern schools were at a disadvantage compared with those at grammar school unless there was an enthusiastic teacher wanting to open ears and minds. However the radio did provide a valuable window and if it was the only source of entertainment then perhaps the chances of encountering classical music were greater - fiddling with the tuning knob to find a station and perhaps passing through a bit of opera(which seems to have been a gateway to many people) or one of the big symphonies. Household income and distance from London - were they an issue in terms of hearing such music then? If they are an issue now is that really a problem solely for R3 to solve? Surely now that even very young children have access to advanced handheld technology aka phones, there are fewer barriers - but you can't find what you don't know is there.

They are an issue if Radio 3 makes the problem even worse by reneging on its ostensible remit.

But you are so right in respect of what you say in the remainder of your post. Undiscriminated access to "all there is", even assuming the inquisitive have not already been nobbled by algorhythmic "choice", is tantamount to showing a child all the cooked meal alternatives that exist in the world, telling them this is your previously unprecedented range for selecting what you need to know, and then offering them Radio 3.