The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[Serial_Apologist]

I can't help thinking that the removal of music from 'education' combined with the multiplicity of choice available in terms of ways to hear hasn't helped improve the situation. I rather think it may well have made things worse. If pupils don't hear music in schools let alone have the chance to participate in music making then they miss an opportunity to find out about alternatives to what they hear everyday. By the same token, the enormous range of music available digitally now doesn't lead in my view to an exposure to different types of music, in fact I suspect it is the opposite. Influencers, algorithms, social media all seem to limit options that are fed to the listener and, I suspect, have the effect of gradually blocking out any curiosity about alternatives.
I realise that there were barriers to accessing 'classical' music in the 'good old days' - pupils in secondary modern schools were at a disadvantage compared with those at grammar school unless there was an enthusiastic teacher wanting to open ears and minds. However the radio did provide a valuable window and if it was the only source of entertainment then perhaps the chances of encountering classical music were greater - fiddling with the tuning knob to find a station and perhaps passing through a bit of opera(which seems to have been a gateway to many people) or one of the big symphonies. Household income and distance from London - were they an issue in terms of hearing such music then? If they are an issue now is that really a problem solely for R3 to solve? Surely now that even very young children have access to advanced handheld technology aka phones, there are fewer barriers - but you can't find what you don't know is there.

They are an issue if Radio 3 makes the problem even worse by reneging on its ostensible remit.

But you are so right in respect of what you say in the remainder of your post. Undiscriminated access to "all there is", even assuming the inquisitive have not already been nobbled by algorhythmic "choice", is tantamount to showing a child all the cooked meal alternatives that exist in the world, telling them this is your previously unprecedented range for selecting what you need to know, and then offering them Radio 3.

[Ein Heldenleben]

EH

I agree with your basic analysis of BBC management but not about whether it is a 'waste of time' to complain - or rather it would be only if you fully expect your complaint to result in positive action. But as trhe saying goes, it's not who you write to but who you copy to. I'm well aware that the approachable BBC Trust was abolished and replaced by an unfathomable "BBC Board" of which Tim Davie is a member, and an Executive Committee of which Tim Davie is the chairman.

The problem (for me) is that it's not in my nature to do nothing when I believe 'something should be done'. I'm perfectly resigned to the fact that others prefer to grumble endlessly, sigh and then turn to Mahler 2 or read a book about World War 1. Everyone has Better Things To Do

The BBC board has got its hands full with so many largely avoidable disasters like the Gaza doc , Huw Edwards , Tim Westwood not to mention the entire funding future of the corp I suspect programming policy on R3 might at least come as light relief. The “Arts rep “ Nick Serota is such a titanic disappointment. What doesn’t he do anything ? Satire died when they made Robbie Gibb the England rep. No surprise that those two areas Arts and English TV and Radio programming have been laid waste.

[french frank]

EH

I agree with your basic analysis of BBC management but not about whether it is a 'waste of time' to complain - or rather it would be only if you fully expect your complaint to result in positive action. But as trhe saying goes, it's not who you write to but who you copy to. I'm well aware that the approachable BBC Trust was abolished and replaced by an unfathomable "BBC Board" of which Tim Davie is a member, and an Executive Committee of which Tim Davie is the chairman.

The problem (for me) is that it's not in my nature to do nothing when I believe 'something should be done'. I'm perfectly resigned to the fact that others prefer to grumble endlessly, sigh and then turn to Mahler 2 or read a book about World War 1. Everyone has Better Things To Do

[Ein Heldenleben]

As we seem regularly to move on from the Eternal Breakfast. I thought I would copy here extracts (my bold) from what was probably the BBC Trust's last Service Review of Radio 3, in 2011. I think there are grounds for an official complaint at the way the content of the station has been wilfully distorted by latecomers to BBC management (sorry for the length):

p 1 "Radio 3 is intended to offer a mixture of music and cultural programming. Its core proposition is classical music and its speech-based programming should inform and educate the audience about music and culture. Radio 3 should also feature jazz, world music, drama, the arts and ideas, and religious programming [...]

pp 6-7 "Radio 3 is the BBC’s flagship service for making classical, jazz and world music available to licence fee payers. We note, however, that it is not the sole responsibility of Radio 3 to deliver the great works of classical music and other musical genres to all audiences. The BBC has an overall responsibility for this and there are many services with a role to play in achieving this ambition
This is particularly the case because the nature of Radio 3 means that it struggles to reach certain audience groups, such as younger people, those from less well-off households, those living further away from London, and black and minority ethnic audiences. While we would welcome an increase in listening amongst these groups, other BBC services appeal much more strongly to them than Radio 3. Other services are more effective in reaching these audiences and therefore can complement Radio 3’s delivery of this content. We believe that a coordinated approach can make more impact and note the success that the BBC has had with its poetry and opera seasons, even though these did not result in increases in listening to Radio 3 itself. We welcome the creation of the BBC classical music board which is chaired by the Controller of Radio 3 and helps coordinate this content across the BBC.

We have asked BBC management to consider how the BBC can best deliver classical, jazz and world music to as many licence fee payers as possible, and how Radio 3 should contribute to this overall ambition. In particular, BBC management should consider how this content can be made available and appealing to those audiences that Radio 3 significantly struggles to reach. "

Sam Jackson seems to be doing the exact opposite in dumping Radio 2 material on Radio 3.

I think you’d be wasting your time complaining to the BBC . The Trust was abolished in 2017 so they are not there to adjudicate. The life cycle of any BBC “policy” is probably only about 5 years . In TV about 5 months. interesting about the commitment to World Music. There’s very little of that on the new Radio 3 . It obviously gets no audience and is being eased off the channel. Aside from CE there is no religious programming .
The amount of classical music on R3 probably hasn’t gone down in 20 years.It’s just that it’s segmented into chunks . That’s not really a criterion of complaint they will entertain. And this is the problem - it all comes down to things like Is Gershwin a classical composer? Or just this week : is playing the slow movement only of Beethoven Op 135 “serious? ”
You are dealing with people who either don’t have the intellect or knowledge to grasp these issues or who do but just don’t care. The most cynical people are often the most intelligent.

You’d be better off complaining to OFCOM about a breach in licence commitment. The number of serious music and arts programmes on BBC TV has declined by I estimate 30 per cent in the last ten years or so, I’m not sure OFCOM a have signed that off. Unfortunately OFCOM are the Broadcasting equivalent of a chocolate teapot so it’s so many wasted words.

[oddoneout]

Clearly there has been a complete change of policy since 2011, similar to that (and over a similar time-span) between the creation of the British Transport Commission and the Beeching cuts, which reversed everythijg the BTC was supposed to stand for.

I know I'm a but slow at times, but I didn't see how 'Radio 3 struggles to reach certain audience groups' (which are then named). Radio 3 was as accessible then as now, to anyone with a radio. Did these people not have radios? I don't remember Radio 3 'struggling'.

I can't help thinking that the removal of music from 'education' combined with the multiplicity of choice available in terms of ways to hear hasn't helped improve the situation. I rather think it may well have made things worse. If pupils don't hear music in schools let alone have the chance to participate in music making then they miss an opportunity to find out about alternatives to what they hear everyday. By the same token, the enormous range of music available digitally now doesn't lead in my view to an exposure to different types of music, in fact I suspect it is the opposite. Influencers, algorithms, social media all seem to limit options that are fed to the listener and, I suspect, have the effect of gradually blocking out any curiosity about alternatives.
I realise that there were barriers to accessing 'classical' music in the 'good old days' - pupils in secondary modern schools were at a disadvantage compared with those at grammar school unless there was an enthusiastic teacher wanting to open ears and minds. However the radio did provide a valuable window and if it was the only source of entertainment then perhaps the chances of encountering classical music were greater - fiddling with the tuning knob to find a station and perhaps passing through a bit of opera(which seems to have been a gateway to many people) or one of the big symphonies. Household income and distance from London - were they an issue in terms of hearing such music then? If they are an issue now is that really a problem solely for R3 to solve? Surely now that even very young children have access to advanced handheld technology aka phones, there are fewer barriers - but you can't find what you don't know is there.

[smittims]

Clearly there has been a complete change of policy since 2011, similar to that (and over a similar time-span) between the creation of the British Transport Commission and the Beeching cuts, which reversed everythijg the BTC was supposed to stand for.

I know I'm a but slow at times, but I didn't see how 'Radio 3 struggles to reach certain audience groups' (which are then named). Radio 3 was as accessible then as now, to anyone with a radio. Did these people not have radios? I don't remember Radio 3 'struggling'.

[kernelbogey]

FF: ...an official complaint...

How does it become 'official'?

[hmvman]

... We welcome the creation of the BBC classical music board which is chaired by the Controller of Radio 3 and helps coordinate this content across the BBC. [/FONT][/FONT]


Sam Jackson seems to be doing the exact opposite in dumping Radio 2 material on Radio 3.[/FONT][/FONT]

Fascinating stuff, ff. Does the BBC classical music board still exist? If so is SJ chairing it?

Isn't it rather that SJ isn't resisting the dumping of R2 material onto R3?

[french frank]

As we seem regularly to move on from the Eternal Breakfast. I thought I would copy here extracts (my bold) from what was probably the BBC Trust's last Service Review of Radio 3, in 2011. I think there are grounds for an official complaint at the way the content of the station has been wilfully distorted by latecomers to BBC management (sorry for the length):

p 1 "Radio 3 is intended to offer a mixture of music and cultural programming. Its core proposition is classical music and its speech-based programming should inform and educate the audience about music and culture. Radio 3 should also feature jazz, world music, drama, the arts and ideas, and religious programming [...]

pp 6-7 "Radio 3 is the BBC’s flagship service for making classical, jazz and world music available to licence fee payers. We note, however, that it is not the sole responsibility of Radio 3 to deliver the great works of classical music and other musical genres to all audiences. The BBC has an overall responsibility for this and there are many services with a role to play in achieving this ambition
This is particularly the case because the nature of Radio 3 means that it struggles to reach certain audience groups, such as younger people, those from less well-off households, those living further away from London, and black and minority ethnic audiences. While we would welcome an increase in listening amongst these groups, other BBC services appeal much more strongly to them than Radio 3. Other services are more effective in reaching these audiences and therefore can complement Radio 3’s delivery of this content. We believe that a coordinated approach can make more impact and note the success that the BBC has had with its poetry and opera seasons, even though these did not result in increases in listening to Radio 3 itself. We welcome the creation of the BBC classical music board which is chaired by the Controller of Radio 3 and helps coordinate this content across the BBC.

We have asked BBC management to consider how the BBC can best deliver classical, jazz and world music to as many licence fee payers as possible, and how Radio 3 should contribute to this overall ambition. In particular, BBC management should consider how this content can be made available and appealing to those audiences that Radio 3 significantly struggles to reach. "

Sam Jackson seems to be doing the exact opposite in dumping Radio 2 material on Radio 3.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Quite so: the way that many R3 presenters are mangling German these days in particular makes me very ashamed. You'd think that basic competence in pronouncing German, Italian and French would be a given for people whose core job involves interacting with those three languages on a daily basis.

The bigoted notion that art music is "elitist" ties in with this Anglo-American monoglot ignorance - which also explains the obsession with the Great American Pong Book, Florence Price and all that jazz so lustily promoted by R3 these days.

Yes it’s been another bad couple of weeks for MessyAnn the well known French organist/composer.
What’s so annoying is that there’s even a “how to pronounce French Composers’ names “ YouTube site .
It’s en as in enfant not an…

Mind you if you pronounced Ravel the French way with the accent very much on the Ra and maybe even a rolling raspy R as in renard no doubt people would think you were taking the mickey. Not even our Katie does that….

[kernelbogey]

Quite so: the way that many R3 presenters are mangling German these days in particular makes me very ashamed. You'd think that basic competence in pronouncing German, Italian and French would be a given for people whose core job involves interacting with those three languages on a daily basis.

[LMcD]

Quite so: the way that many R3 presenters are mangling German these days in particular makes me very ashamed. You'd think that basic competence in pronouncing German, Italian and French would be a given for people whose core job involves interacting with those three languages on a daily basis.

I've mentioned this more than once in the past - I'm not even going to try to transcribe one particular presenter's (mis)pronunciation of 'Rheinlegendchen'.
Regrettably, more and more schools seem unable or unwilling to teach modern languages, and I believe that at least one Welsh university has recently announced that it will be closing its modern languages department. It hardly seems credible, now, that I was encouraged to concentrate on modern languages and found myself studying French for 4 periods a week and German for 8!

[Master Jacques]

Yes, I think knowledge of classical music is seen as 'elitist' these days. I recall that in the early days of Classic FM it seemed like almost a badge of honour for presenters to mis-pronounce the names of composers and artists.

Quite so: the way that many R3 presenters are mangling German these days in particular makes me very ashamed. You'd think that basic competence in pronouncing German, Italian and French would be a given for people whose core job involves interacting with those three languages on a daily basis.

The bigoted notion that art music is "elitist" ties in with this Anglo-American monoglot ignorance - which also explains the obsession with the Great American Pong Book, Florence Price and all that jazz so lustily promoted by R3 these days.

[french frank]

Continuing oddeoneout's ideea about gradual encouragement, it was an intention when the Third Programme began , to link broadacsts across the BBC, so that,say , a waltz from Der Rosenkavalier would be heard on the Light Programme, a suite from the same opera on the Home,and a complete performance on the Third, with listeners being told at each stage where to go next.

About 10(?) years ago, the BBC Trust agreed in a published document that other services besides Radio 3 had a part to play in introducing listeners to classical music. Unfortunately, BBC managers didn't follow this up in any systematic way. But it seems obvious that what may be considered "dumbing down", if broadcast on Radio 3 to a Radio 3 audience, is a widening of horizons if broadcast on mass audience services - both radio and television.

In the end it's the listener who decides whether, as far as they're concerned, programmes are "dumbing down", not the managers: the recipient not the provider.

I don't know how much this was followed up, and of course it would be unthinkable today when the various BBC channels seem to run in isolation from one another.

Radio 3 cooperates with other radio stations in taking on programmes that other stations decide to drop - e.g. Kershaw from R1 and FNiMN from R2. And I'm quite sure they would have just ditched The Verb and Free Thinking to make R3 a 'music station' regardless of whether R4 had decided that they would add a bit of prestige to what they were offering. Unfortunately it appears there were no takers for long-form drama.

[smittims]

Continuing oddeoneout's ideea about gradual encouragement, it was an intention when the Third Programme began , to link broadacsts across the BBC, so that,say , a waltz from Der Rosenkavalier would be heard on the Light Programme, a suite from the same opera on the Home,and a complete performance on the Third, with listeners being told at each stage where to go next. I don't know how much this was followed up, and of course it would be unthinkable today when the various BBC channels seem to run in isolation from one another.

There have, of course, been Radio 4 programmes aimed at introducing specific works by chat and excerpts.