Brahms' gloomy symphony.

[Lento]

Interesting that Brahms made ironic reference to the gloomy nature of his 2nd Symphony, presumably meaning that it wasn’t so gloomy. I think the first movement has plenty of wistfulness about it, notwithstanding, and he gets himself into quite a twist in the slow mvt. These aspects seemed to be particularly evident in the thoughtful performance by Szell and the Cleveland on Essential Classics today. The emotional balance between the first 2 mvts and the last 2 helps make this such a satisfying work IMO. It doesn’t feel especially “pastoral” to me either, save the 3rd mvt. So perhaps Sarah Walker’s introduction didn’t tell quite the whole story, although I would totally endorse what she said afterwards.

[Nick Armstrong]

Interesting that Brahms made ironic reference to the gloomy nature of his 2nd Symphony, presumably meaning that it wasn’t so gloomy. I think the first movement has plenty of wistfulness about it, notwithstanding, and he gets himself into quite a twist in the slow mvt. These aspects seemed to be particularly evident in the thoughtful performance by Szell and the Cleveland on Essential Classics today. The emotional balance between the first 2 mvts and the last 2 helps make this such a satisfying work IMO. It doesn’t feel especially “pastoral” to me either, save the 3rd mvt. So perhaps Sarah Walker’s introduction didn’t tell quite the whole story, although I would totally endorse what she said afterwards.

Agreed. I heard the intro and the first three movements but then had to switch off. I also pondered that 'gloomy' quote, initially thinking he must have been pulling people's legs... but then hearing more, well... non-cheerful stuff in Szell's reading than I've noticed before - not sure I'd say 'gloomy', the word seems to me to be 'terse'.

What did Dr W say afterwards? I missed that.

[richardfinegold]

Agreed. I heard the intro and the first three movements but then had to switch off. I also pondered that 'gloomy' quote, initially thinking he must have been pulling people's legs... but then hearing more, well... non-cheerful stuff in Szell's reading than I've noticed before - not sure I'd say 'gloomy', the word seems to me to be 'terse'.

What did Dr W say afterwards? I missed that.

My intro to the Brahms Symphonies was the Szell/Cleveland set on lp and their version of the Second colored my impressions of the work for a while (it was my least favorite major Brahms composition). It wasn't until I began collecting other versions that I realized how imprinted I had become. I listened to the Szell again a few weeks ago and it's still a downer.
My favorite recordings are led by Furtwangler and Kurt Sanderling. I also like my most recent purchase, the Andrew Manze led version, but I think it is just a bit to brisk to make it a prefered version.

[Lento]

I listened to the Szell again a few weeks ago and it's still a downer.

I enjoyed it, but not sure I would buy it: some of the tempi perhaps a little slow? It didn't neglect the shadows in the first 2 mvts.

[Tony Halstead]

I enjoyed it, but not sure I would buy it: some of the tempi perhaps a little slow? It didn't neglect the shadows in the first 2 mvts.

In the 1st movement (on CD) Szell is not quite as slow as (in concert) Christopher Warren-Green, in whose London Chamber Orchestra performance at Cadogan Hall I played last week. Nevertheless CW-G's 1st movement - its glowing incandescence made more radiant by some superlative 1st horn playing by Pip Eastop - hung together and made more structural sense than the Szell/ Cleveland recording.
Szell really comes into his own in the following 3 movements, though.
I was lucky enough to be in the audience in the Usher Hall, Edinburgh, in August 1967 when the Szell/ Cleveland partnership resulted in the finest 'live' Brahms 2 that I've ever been privileged to hear.
Compared to their studio recording the Edinburgh concert was about 500 volts more 'electric'.

[pastoralguy]

One of my all time favourite works. The Halle under Jimmy Loughrin was my introduction (on CfP). I do love Herbie's versions with the incomparable Berlin Phil. as well as the great Sir Adrian Boult's recording with the LPO?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

One of my all time favourite works. The Halle under Jimmy Loughrin was my introduction (on CfP).

Mine, too - Loughran's is still amongst my favourite recordings of the work.

One of Abbado's best recordings, too - fully aware of the "shadows", he uses this to enhance the sunshine; very Furtwangleresque. And Jurowski's recentish LPO performance is a joy - magnificent control of the overall structure, superb awareness of instrumental colour and shading, and an irresistable sweep to the whole performance.

[cloughie]

Mine, too - Loughran's is still amongst my favourite recordings of the work.

One of Abbado's best recordings, too - fully aware of the "shadows", he uses this to enhance the sunshine; very Furtwangleresque. And Jurowski's recentish LPO performance is a joy - magnificent control of the overall structure, superb awareness of instrumental colour and shading, and an irresistable sweep to the whole performance.

Brahms 2 has fared well on LP and CD - long time favourites have been BPO Kempe, VPO Monteux, LSO Monteux, PO Klemperer.

[kea]

Jochum/LPO is my reference but his mono recording with the BPO is probably better from the comparisons I've done (the BPO seems to come out ahead in the 1st and 2nd symphonies, the LPO in the 3rd and 4th). Not very gloomy though. For that you're looking at the likes of Eschenbach/Houston or Giulini/Vienna (if you've ever felt the problem with the Allegro non troppo is that it's just too fast!)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Brahms 2 has fared well on LP and CD

- has there ever been a poor performance on record? The work seems to be indestructable - Beecham's recording with the RPO completely skims over the darker moments of the work to emphasize the sheer joy of the piece: and it works! Brilliantly.

[Hornspieler]

- has there ever been a poor performance on record? The work seems to be indestructable - Beecham's recording with the RPO completely skims over the darker moments of the work to emphasize the sheer joy of the piece: and it works! Brilliantly.

Totally agreed! (but I would say that, wouldn't I?)

HS

[Petrushka]

The Second was the Brahms symphony I came to last and I struggled with it a bit until I heard Bernard Haitink's LSO recording and then it all fell into place. This is easily the best of Haitink's LSO cycle and is a superb performance. As said, there can hardly be a duff recording in the catalogue but I don't think I helped myself in coming to it in the first place with Furtwangler's 1945 VPO account in decidedly ropey sound.

Brahms was having a bit of heavy-handed humour in depicting it as gloomy but, while it's not without its shadows, a more sunny work is hard to imagine. Who can fail to be thrilled by that brassy conclusion? Furtwangler in January 1945 Vienna with the Third Reich fast crumbling and the Russians having reached Auschwitz the day before has one thinking that 'gloomy' might have been more in order (the Franck Symphony was in the first half).

[richardfinegold]

Shouldn't the 4th be considered Brahms' Gloomy Symphony?

[teamsaint]

The Second was the Brahms symphony I came to last and I struggled with it a bit until I heard Bernard Haitink's LSO recording and then it all fell into place. This is easily the best of Haitink's LSO cycle and is a superb performance. As said, there can hardly be a duff recording in the catalogue but I don't think I helped myself in coming to it in the first place with Furtwangler's 1945 VPO account in decidedly ropey sound.

Brahms was having a bit of heavy-handed humour in depicting it as gloomy but, while it's not without its shadows, a more sunny work is hard to imagine. Who can fail to be thrilled by that brassy conclusion? Furtwangler in January 1945 Vienna with the Third Reich fast crumbling and the Russians having reached Auschwitz the day before has one thinking that 'gloomy' might have been more in order (the Franck Symphony was in the first half).

Sorry to have to ask, but is that the live recording?

[Petrushka]

Sorry to have to ask, but is that the live recording?

It's on the LSO Live label and so a combination of a couple of live performances. It's still my favourite Brahms 2.