Don't ask me to improvise!

[Lento]

Rob Cowan's guest today (Stewart Copeland, composer and member of the Police) was apparently passing comment about classically trained orchestral musicians being taken aback at being asked to improvise. As he seemed to be going on about it rather, I presume he had experience of this (I only heard a very short extract), but it did set me wondering. Nigel Kennedy commented about Menuhin having his notes written down when playing with Grappelli, for example, but can one really generalise about today's orchestral players? One would have thought that clarinettists, for example, would be entirely comfortable with this kind of thing.

PS I do mean the pop group and not the organisation, so "accompany me to the station" jokes unfortunately not appropriate!

[french frank]

Rob Cowan's guest today (Stewart Copeland, composer and member of the Police) was apparently passing comment about classically trained orchestral musicians being taken aback at being asked to improvise. As he seemed to be going on about it rather, I presume he had experience of this

Since, as a general rule, classical orchestral musicians aren't required to improvise, I'm not sure why they shouldn't be surprised. Ask someone who only paints in oils to paint in watercolours, or someone who specialises in translating business French to write a French novel. (Or do people think that 'music is different'?)

I do remember (I think) Daniel Barenboim saying that improvisation was the highest form of music-making, or words to that effect. But it seems to me to be a different skill, more necessary/admired in some forms of music than others.

[Lento]

it seems to me to be a different skill, more necessary/admired in some forms of music than others.

To digress a little, organists are a totally different matter, of course, especially in France.

[BBMmk2]

I improvise on the piano

[Serial_Apologist]

One improvises every time one holds a conversation. Music is just another aspect of language, and just as eligible for spontaneous expression. You can have preparation, scores and the like, but this is akin to writing poems and prose.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I do remember (I think) Daniel Barenboim saying that improvisation was the highest form of music-making, or words to that effect.

Wasn't he paraphrasing Mozart?

But it seems to me to be a different skill, more necessary/admired in some forms of music than others.

Improvisation was regarded as an essential skill for a performer until the late 19th Century - and, thanks to changes in performance Exam requirements, it is now required of anyone learning how to play an instrument today much more than it was when I wor a lad (tell that to the adults today and they won't believe you). It's the same for actors, too, I believe. It is, as you say, a "different skill" from performance of a written score, but as "necessary", I would suggest, to all performers as sight-reading.

And there isn't a straight divide between "Classical" and Jazz performers - I've witnessed many proficient improvisers who are "classically" trained, and a couple of Jazz players (of astonishing skill in a Big Band) who couldn't improvize to save their lives.


(Are there any professional Artists who "only paint in oils", by the way? I had thought that visual Art training required a demonstrable level of skill in charcoal, ink, clay, oils, watercolour etc?)

[Roehre]

...
I do remember (I think) Daniel Barenboim saying that improvisation was the highest form of music-making, or words to that effect. But it seems to me to be a different skill, more necessary/admired in some forms of music than others.

That's the present situation.
But Mozart and especially Beethoven were first known for their improvisation skills, as e.g. Bruckner was as well.

[Bryn]

There are plenty of fine improvisors among leading 'classical' musicians today. Just think of people as varied as Barry Guy, Ilan Volkov, the man Kennedy, etc. That Barrett chap ain't so bad at it either. One important point to remember about Menuhin is that while he never really 'got the knack' of improvising, he strongly encouraged the development of his students' improvisational abilities.

Oh, and here's another plug for Fred Rzewski's improvisational skills in Beethoven sonatas:

and

Op. 106

[doversoul1]

Rob Cowan's guest today (Stewart Copeland, composer and member of the Police) was apparently passing comment about classically trained orchestral musicians being taken aback at being asked to improvise.

I didn’t hear the programme and I have no idea what sort of a musician this guest is, but isn’t this one of those stock phrases used by non-classical musicians when they want to stir things up, obviously ignoring all context? I really wish Radio3 wouldn’t cheapen itself by broadcasting this sort of completely pointless talks.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I didn’t hear the programme and I have no idea what sort of a musician this guest is, but isn’t this one of those stock phrases used by non-classical musicians when they want to stir things up, obviously ignoring all context?

Not necessarily, dovers: Copeland is talking from experience - a Rock/Jazz drummer, he has written several film, television and concert scores since the 1980s using "Classical" (actually closer to Late Romantic) Symphony Orchestra Musicians. He's not the only one - John Cage experienced the "classically trained orchestral Musicians" from NYPO not merely being "taken aback at being asked to improvise", but actively vandalising the microphones that were his own property. I think (hope!) that times have moved on, and present-day players from orchestras are both more proficient - and more civilized!

[DublinJimbo]

Oh, and here's another plug for Fred Rzewski's improvisational skills in Beethoven sonatas:

[video]

and

[Op. 106]

Fascinating stuff, Bryn. I've listened to/watched the Appassionata. I'll save the Hammerklavier for another time. I already had great respect for Rzewski, and all the more now after this.

(By the way: where was your other plug for Fred?)

[Bryn]

Fascinating stuff, Bryn. I've listened to/watched the Appassionata. I'll save the Hammerklavier for another time. I already had great respect for Rzewski, and all the more now after this.

(By the way: where was your other plug for Fred?)

I linked to the Op. 106 Youtube item a few weeks ago. Not sure which thread.