Are (were) Gilbert and Sullivan really so bad?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

On a related issue, I'ver been hoping Decca would release their 1970s Iolanthe on CD. The LPs are still in good condition, but...

[Don Basilio]

Yes, and I believe the Yeoman of the Guard overture was the only one Sullivan wrote and orchestrated himself rather than leaving it to a minion.

As a total G&S anorak I grab my new copy of The Cambridge Companion to Gilbert and Sullivan and read that Sullivan wrote the overtures to Iolanthe, Princess Ida, The Yeoman of the Guard, The Gondoliers and The Grand Duke. The overture to Patience was by Eugene D'Albert, the composer of Tiefland.

I don't think the overtures are the place to start.

[aeolium]

Allowing of course for those who really dislike the style and idiom of G&S, I wonder whether some of the flak that comes their way is out of a generalised hostility to all things Victorian. I remember in the 1960s and 1970s there seemed to be a powerful antipathy towards Victoriana and although that has to some extent abated it is still there: the Victorian seemed to represent hypocrisy, sentimentality, prudishness, Dickens, Brontes, the Arnolds, Tennyson, imperialism, neo-Gothic, verbosity, insularity, das Land ohne Musik etc etc etc. For some perhaps G&S is just one more symbol of a despised culture - even though of course they were lampooning that culture. Perhaps now that there is a more balanced perspective on the Victorian age and an awareness of some of its real achievements, it's possible to reassess G&S. Their works always seem to go down well at the Proms whenever they are done.

[Uncle Monty]

As a total G&S anorak I grab my new copy of The Cambridge Companion to Gilbert and Sullivan and read that Sullivan wrote the overtures to Iolanthe, Princess Ida, The Yeoman of the Guard, The Gondoliers and The Grand Duke. The overture to Patience was by Eugene D'Albert, the composer of Tiefland.

I don't think the overtures are the place to start.

OK, thanks, I sit corrected!

I'm sure I read that on the sleeve-notes of the LP of the D'Oyly Carte 1960s version. You can't trust anyone, can you?!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

One G & S recording that has achieved legendary status is the 1957 D'Oyly Carte Mikado - the first stereo opera to be issued. It is claimed by many to be superior to the 1973 remake, but it has never appeared on CD (apart from an Eloquence CD of highlights). Can anyone here shed any light on this performance?

[umslopogaas]

Post 35 Ein Alpensinfonie

I've got that 1957 recording on the original two LPs, but its a very long time since I played it. It is indeed a very early stereo, codes ASD 256 and ASD 257: the series only started with ASD 251. The cast is:

The Mikado Owen Brannigan
Nanki-Poo Richard Lewis
Ko-Ko Geraint Evans
Pooh-Bah Ian Wallace
Pish-Tush John Cameron
Yu-Yum Elsie Morison
Pitti-Sing Marjorie Thomas
Peep-Bo Jeannette Sinclair
Katisha Monica Sinclair

Pro Arte Orchestra and Glyndebourne Festival Chorus, conducted by Sir Malcolm Sargent. Sleeve notes by Arthur Jacob. "The paragraphs given in italic type represent the action contained within the spoken dialogue, which is omitted on this recording." Which is a pity, I imagine it might well be very funny.

I have a price guide to collectible records and some of the early ASD series go for stonking sums, but not these two: they suggest only twenty five quid for the two, though that is a lot more than I remember paying for them. I dont think this is snobbery, its supply and demand: G & S recordings sold well at the time, there are more than enough still with us to go round.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The cast is:

The Mikado Owen Brannigan
Nanki-Poo Richard Lewis
Ko-Ko Geraint Evans
Pooh-Bah Ian Wallace
Pish-Tush John Cameron
Yu-Yum Elsie Morison
Pitti-Sing Marjorie Thomas
Peep-Bo Jeannette Sinclair
Katisha Monica Sinclair

Pro Arte Orchestra and Glyndebourne Festival Chorus, conducted by Sir Malcolm Sargent.

What a superb cast. No wonder it is so revered.

[Don Basilio]

Allowing of course for those who really dislike the style and idiom of G&S, I wonder whether some of the flak that comes their way is out of a generalised hostility to all things Victorian. I remember in the 1960s and 1970s there seemed to be a powerful antipathy towards Victoriana and although that has to some extent abated it is still there: the Victorian seemed to represent hypocrisy, sentimentality, prudishness, Dickens, Brontes, the Arnolds, Tennyson, imperialism, neo-Gothic, verbosity, insularity, das Land ohne Musik etc etc etc. For some perhaps G&S is just one more symbol of a despised culture - even though of course they were lampooning that culture. Perhaps now that there is a more balanced perspective on the Victorian age and an awareness of some of its real achievements, it's possible to reassess G&S. Their works always seem to go down well at the Proms whenever they are done.

That may have been the case as late as the 60s, but I'm sure it would not be the case now, with courses in Victorian studies regularly offered.

Mind you, there is a difference between using works as the basis for your thesis, and actually enjoying them.

[vinteuil]

Allowing of course for those who really dislike the style and idiom of G&S, I wonder whether some of the flak that comes their way is out of a generalised hostility to all things Victorian...

In some cases this may be true. But altho' I am out of sympathy with much Victoriana, I have a lot of time for many writers of that period - Newman, Carlyle, Browning, Trollope, Clough, Arnold, Ruskin ... no, in my case I think that it is, as you put, it a strong "dislike [of] the style and idiom of G&S" : but then, I have a strong dislike of 'light music' anyway...

[Dave2002]

One G & S recording that has achieved legendary status is the 1957 D'Oyly Carte Mikado - the first stereo opera to be issued. It is claimed by many to be superior to the 1973 remake, but it has never appeared on CD (apart from an Eloquence CD of highlights). Can anyone here shed any light on this performance?

Ah - how interesting. I think umslopgaas got it wrong - he's thinking of the Sargent recordings. I'm pretty sure I have the Mikado on LPs - conducted by Isidore Godfrey. Didn't think it might be valuable, or rare! I shall treasure it more! On Decca. My discs haven't been played for years.

If more details are required I guess I could find them.

[umslopogaas]

Post 40 dave2002

Nooo, I just checked and the details I posted are correct, it was the Pro Arte Orchestra and Glyndebourne Festival Chorus conducted by Sargent. The 2006 price guide is five years out of date and in any case is only a guide, but it does reflect with variable accuracy the prices currently being achieved for classical vinyl on ebay. Twenty five quid for a two LP set is quite a modest price for early ASDs on the first label in good nick, several of them go for three figures. And if you've got Gioconda de Vito's only stereo violin concento recording (ASD 429), well ... name your price! The Guide suggests two thousand. No, I havent, alas, I've never even seen it. Howver, beware: there is a company, in Germany, I think, that makes reproductions of very rare and expensive vinyl. I have seen some of them and they are extremely accurate. So if you come across a pristine copy of ASD 429, its probably a fake. Still worth thirty quid, but not two thousand.

The guide does mono and stereo Decca LP prices, so if you post the details I'll look them up for you. I'll need details of the labels, its the earliest labels that fetch the big money. Howver, just post the numbers to start with, we can home in on label details later.

[salymap]

I have the Sargent 1957 recording of Mikado mentioned earlier on 2 CDs, marked ADD. How much are they worth or is it only the LP version that counts? I miss the dialogue in the four G&S operas I boughtyears ago and have hardly played them.

[umslopogaas]

Post 42 salymap

There is a collector's market for CDs, but I dont go there, so cant answer accurately. All my CDs were bought secondhand, and in general terms full price ones are bought in for around a fiver and sold out again for around a tenner. Bargain issues and reissues proportionally less. There is at least one label that fetches rather more, I think because it was issued only in small numbers and no longer exists, but I'm afraid I dont know what it was called. So, probably not much for a reissue of an early HMV stereo LP.

If you are interested, you could try a phone call to Fine Records in Hove (01273 723345): Julian Pelling or Ian Wallace should be able to tell you, but dont raise your hopes, they'll only make you an offer if it is of special interest, they've got a shop full of secondhand CDs. Original vinyl in good nick is a different matter, they're very interested in that! Trouble is, its getting very hard to find.

By the way, they dont know me by my assumed name ...

[salymap]

Thanks but Ithink i will play it soon. It certainly has some very good singers. Thanks anyway.

[Flosshilde]

But it is still performable, and the fact that those performances don't reach the standards of professional companies like ENO, WNO etc does not to my mind matter. It gives pleasure to the performers and probably quite a few of their friends and relatives in the audience,

Yes, well, anything is performable - Florence Foster Jenkins performed - but that doesn't neccessarily mean that its any good (& I hasten to add, being performed by a non-professiuonal company doesn't neccessarily mean that it's bad).

Sullivan wrote some very good music, & Gilbert wrote some entertaining & at times penetratingf (even now) lyrics. It's a pity our opera companies don't perform them more often - even the ENO, after its success with the Mikado, han't attempted any others.