Are (were) Gilbert and Sullivan really so bad?

[MickyD]

In my view - very good. The best and most varied musical pastiche and much better than the continental operetta equivalents. Of course the output is varied - some G&S is a good deal better than the lesser stuff. Most of these works are still in the repertoire after more than a century, and widely performed in the English-speaking world. There was definitely a place for well-written lighter/comic operetta in the vernacular in the C19 and they filled it in this country. And unlike most opera, it is performable by non-professional companies. Good on them, I say.

Well, having sat through some truly excruciating amateur performances of G & S, I beg to differ that it is performable by (many) non-professional companies. In fact I am always amazed that amateur companies so often choose G & S and think they can tackle it - to me, if it is going to work, it has to be done as slickly as possible, in the same way as good farce.

[agingjb]

Well I like G & S. It's not entirely clear what is the consensus here, or if there is one.

I would, however, admit that there are posts on this forum that suggest to me that I have no place here, and that the Radio 3 that its Friends want is not the Radio 3 that I listen to so much - they seem to want a Radio 3 whose continued support with public funds would test my generosity.

I could wish that the hostility were focused on the repetitive trails which, for me, are more irritating than the advertisements on another channel.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I could wish that the hostility were focused on the repetitive trails which, for me, are more irritating than the advertisements on another channel.

You are not alone. Many of us would like to see a reduction in the negative threads.

[aeolium]

Well, having sat through some truly excruciating amateur performances of G & S, I beg to differ that it is performable by (many) non-professional companies. In fact I am always amazed that amateur companies so often choose G & S and think they can tackle it - to me, if it is going to work, it has to be done as slickly as possible, in the same way as good farce.

But it is still performable, and the fact that those performances don't reach the standards of professional companies like ENO, WNO etc does not to my mind matter. It gives pleasure to the performers and probably quite a few of their friends and relatives in the audience, and enables them to do something in the community with music which would absolutely not be possible with operas from the standard repertoire, Mozart, Handel, Verdi or whatever. It is done in language that both performers and audience understand, and with songs and choruses where they can make out the words - again, unlike much traditional opera. I think that's a good thing, even though it's obviously better as a listener to hear it done well professionally.

[EdgeleyRob]

Yes they are (were)

[french frank]

I was unaware that anyone did think they were bad . People are divided in their preferences and they may be able to explain why they don't like them/why they hate them. But that isn't anything to do with 'good' or 'bad' in an absolute sense.

On negative threads here: more often than not it's divided opinions. Whatever opinion is expressed someone else will disagree. On G&S I think it's still balanced on the plus side, though some may contest that view ...

[StephenO]

You are not alone. Many of us would like to see a reduction in the negative threads.

Agreed. Having said that, I also have to agree with Mandryka's view of G & S - pompous, uninspiring and unfunny (G & S, that is, not Mandryka!).

It's obviously a question of personal taste, though, and I know there are MBers who don't share my love of Mozart, Wagner, Mahler or Richard Strauss. And, as I posted on another thread, there are a few pieces by Sullivan minus Gilbert which I do actually admire - Ivanhoe, for example, and the Irish Symphony - and which are a world away from Nanki Poo.

[Eudaimonia]

I had a highly unusual introduction to the world of G&S--when I was a kid, I found this enormous Dover songbook, and had a lot of fun singing and playing through them myself without ever hearing a recording:

THE GILBERT AND SULLIVAN SONGBOOK: 92 UNABRIDGED SELECTIONS FROM ALL 14 OPERAS

http://books.google.com/books?id=QsrvjwepQF8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

To this day, I don't think I've ever heard a recording of a complete performance; not my taste these days. However, I have had close friends who were devoted amateur performers...it seems a shame to badmouth anything that puts such a lively sparkle in people's eyes. Perhaps the trick lies in thinking of it in terms of being "entertainment" rather than "great art".

[Donnie Essen]

I got me a ticket to The Mikado. Listening to a CD of it from the library. New ground for me.

[pilamenon]

Like Dave, I've been sampling some of the overtures - the ones with Sargent and the RPO - and they're really strong, e.g. Yeomen of the Guard, Princess Ida, well written concert pieces in their own right.

Also agree that anything that encourages local community music-making is a good thing, even if it's only people of a certain social background who are likely to be involved.

[Mandryka]

On the subject of negative threads.....I think they can be provocative in a good way, if the opening post is phrased carefully. If I decided to start a thread entitled 'Isn't Mahler Great?', it'd more than likely end up as a series of posts more or less agreeing with the proposition. Otoh, laying into something (particularly if it has 'sacred cow' status) can encourage respondents to come up with some useful defence ideas.

For an example: after initial exposure to the work of Rainer Werner Fassbinder, I started a thread somewhere that suggested he didn't qutie deserve his reputation: the responses I got (all very reasonably phrased) encouraged me to re-examine the way I approached Fassbinder. As a result, I'm now quite a fan!

[french frank]

As a result, I'm now quite a fan!

So ... may I recommend Princess Ida, then?

The other thing about G&S is the importance of the comedy/humour/irony. Straight away it's a failure if people don't think it's funny. And when I think of what people laugh at these days ...

[AjAjAjH]

We did lots of G&S when I was at school. Before my voice broke, I sang Rose Maybud in 'Ruddigore' and Buttercup in 'HMS Pinnafore'. I loved them then and love them to this day.

Had a great music teacher who told us that Sullivan's music for 'The Yeoman of the Guard' was his attempt to make G&S operettas 'more operatic' and that the overture was the only one in sonata form.

For me 'Ruddigore' is the best. Mrs AjAjAjH and I went to the Opera North production. She says that she got as much entertainment out of watching me reliving my past as she did from the performance!!!!

[Uncle Monty]

Had a great music teacher who told us that Sullivan's music for 'The Yeoman of the Guard' was his attempt to make G&S operettas 'more operatic' and that the overture was the only one in sonata form.

Yes, and I believe the Yeoman of the Guard overture was the only one Sullivan wrote and orchestrated himself rather than leaving it to a minion.

[MickyD]

But it is still performable, and the fact that those performances don't reach the standards of professional companies like ENO, WNO etc does not to my mind matter. It gives pleasure to the performers and probably quite a few of their friends and relatives in the audience, and enables them to do something in the community with music which would absolutely not be possible with operas from the standard repertoire, Mozart, Handel, Verdi or whatever. It is done in language that both performers and audience understand, and with songs and choruses where they can make out the words - again, unlike much traditional opera. I think that's a good thing, even though it's obviously better as a listener to hear it done well professionally.

Point taken, aeolium, and here I must confess that I myself was in the chorus of a school performance of The Mikado at the tender age of 16! It was a lot of fun to do and as you say, a good community activity. I have since dug out the old cassettes that were made of the performances and upon hearing them can only sympathise with what the audience had to endure! But yes, it was made up of relatives and friends who were of course there to lend support. Nonetheless, it does still surprise me to see amateur companies tackling what is difficult material and honestly don't think I could sit through any more amateur performances myself nowadays. Each to his own.