Magic Flute

[Dave2002]

Opera plots are frequently fantastic and nonsensical. Some are more problematic, because they may contain ideas and elements which we can identify with, or at least try to understand. The Magic Flute is, for me, one such. It appears (perhaps) to have a struggle between good and evil, and also a belief that some can prove their worthiness by a series of trials. Sarastro appears to be on the side of good, though is not initially presented as such, yet has seemingly brainwashed his followers, and further he employs Monostatos, who has clearly evil tendencies. Why the Queen of the Night is opposed to Sarastro is also not clear.

This article http://www.cincinnatiopera.org/unloc...tes-mysteries/ does not solve all the problems, but addresses them in a coherent way.

Perhaps, as with many other operas, we need to put aside any notions of rationality, and simply assume that the plot is barking mad, and enjoy the music. After all, the title does give a hint. Magic is not something which many who think rationally believe in or experience.

[french frank]

Interesting - I wonder how far individuals automatically construct 'sense' out of 'nonsense'? I must confess I never saw anything contradictory about the 'role reversals' of the Queen and Sarastro: Tamino first hears the Queen's side of the story - of course she is 'good'. But when he hears the other side it changes his opinion - with knowledge comes wisdom. The symbolism of light and darkness is fairly obvious in most contexts. Exact meanings and parallels are looked for in vain, as that article implies. It wasn't the intention, surely, to provide some fully worked through plot where finally all the pieces fit neatly together. Or was it ...?

But I don't find the plot 'barking mad' even in a fantasy fiction way. There is a logic that in rescuing Tamino from whatever danger he was in, the Ladies led him to the QoN, and his quest to find the young woman with whom he had, um, fallen in love through her portrait. (It's not unheard of to find a photo of some person deeply attractive, and combined with a chivalric quest, with a series of tests, not an unusual fictional device). Overall is the Masonic perspective as an allegory of life.

[Nick Armstrong]

Try "Die Frau ohne Schatten"...

[Flosshilde]

I find the plot somewhat misogynistic, with its contrast between the 'hysterical' evil of the Queen of the Night & the calm 'benevolence' of Sarastro. Why is the QotN opposed to Sarastro? Kidnapping her daughter is surely reason enough. There have been productions set on space ships - I'm waiting for a production that portrays Sarastro for what he is - the leader of a cult that kidnaps young people & brainwashes them.

[french frank]

There have been productions set on space ships - I'm waiting for a production that portrays Sarastro for what he is - the leader of a cult that kidnaps young people & brainwashes them.

And celebrates the cult with its ultimate triumph?

[LeMartinPecheur]

The thread title brings instantly to my mind a treasured Alex cartoon.

He's in the Glyndebourne gardens with Vince, both in penguin suits drinking champagne:
ALEX: This year we're in for a marvellous musical feast, Die Zauberflote.
VINCE: Oh er right.
ALEX: Magic Flute, Vince.
VINCE: Thanks Alex. I bought it especially.

[Flosshilde]

And celebrates the cult with its ultimate triumph?

Not all operas have a happy ending.

[french frank]

Not all operas have a happy ending.

There's a difference between an 'unhappy/tragic' ending, and one which celebrates what you are depicting as evil/wrongdoing.

If you would like to see a production which was intended to have that interpretation, it's quite hard to understand why, other than to show that in real life evil does triumph over good (?).

[Flosshilde]

If you would like to see a production which was intended to have that interpretation, it's quite hard to understand why

Because that's how I interpret the opera. A woman's daughter has been abducted - she wants to resue her. I don't see how that's difficult to understand. That clearly wasn't Mozart's view - presumably because he was writing at a time when women were seen as essentially irrational & not capable of managing their own affairs. The (supposed?) connections with Freemasonry don't help, either.

[french frank]

Because that's how I interpret the opera. A woman's daughter has been abducted - she wants to resue her.

A council takes a woman's child away because the mother is a hopeless drug addict and has been encouraging the child to take heroin. The Queen of the Night is clearly not intended to be an ordinary (contemporary) woman, so trying to impose a contemporary literal understanding of the woman-daughter relationship seems unjustified. Some young women of majority age actually want to get away from over possessive mothers.

There is such a device as allegory.

[Flosshilde]

There is such a device as allegory.

Goodness, really?

I thought the point of allegories was that they are open to interpretation - indeed, they have to be interpreted. Presumably an allegory is open to more than one interpretation.

Is The Magic Flute a particular favourite of yours?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There is an excellent chapter devoted to Die Zauberflöte in Brigid Morphy's Mozart the Dramatist (written in the early '60s) which chronicles the background to the singspiel. IIRC (and if subsequent research has not questioned her findings) the problem with the work as it has come to us is that it is based on two stories, one in which the mother is a wronged figure who needs the hero of the story to rescue her daughter from the villain (not unlike the case in Die Entfuhrung), the other in which a heroic band of mystics recruit a young man and save his soul by getting him to defeat the evil mother of a young woman who seeks to abduct her from their haven. Schickaneder first planned an adaptation of the former and, midway through (again IIRC, to avoid offending one of his patrons/sponsors) changed to the other. The "idea" being that the Music, costumes and lighting effects would distract people from whatever resulting "plot" emerged.

My favourite pantomime.

[french frank]

I thought the point of allegories was that they are open to interpretation - indeed, they have to be interpreted. Presumably an allegory is open to more than one interpretation.

Is The Magic Flute a particular favourite of yours?

Everything that isn't clear is open to interpretation, but some interpretations seem more coherent than others.

In singspiel mode, I rather prefer Die Entführung, which to me makes perfect sense, and is extremely touching at the end where the 'villain' shows his nobility in such away that the hero is made to feel ashamed. Piracy on the high seas, and capturing people as slaves was not unusual at the time.

I do find the Magic Flute a little troubling. Wonderful music but not, to me, such a successful 'story'.

[makropulos]

Not all operas have a happy ending.

Fair enough - and your interpretation of the plot is something to which you are entitled (I certainly see what you mean). But what about Mozart's interpretation of the plot? The music at the end of Zauberflöte doesn't sound tragic, bitter or the consequence of an exposé of Sarastro's goings-on. At least it doesn't to me. Which is why I'd struggle with your view of the text attached to Mozart's score.

[Flosshilde]

I do find the Magic Flute a little troubling. Wonderful music but not, to me, such a successful 'story'.

Perhaps that's why I find thge opera less than interesting & have difficulty with accepting the usual interpretation of the story - I don't like Mozart's music enough form it to counteract a plot I don't like. I dislike Fidelio for much the same reasons, & Don Giovanni