Great Verdian-Wagnerians

[Guest]

DAME GWYNETH JONES
As this is equally Verdi's bi-centenary as well as Wagner's, I thought of this thread when reading Barbirollians post on overacting and he mentioned not having known that Gwyneth Jones was such a great Verdi singer in her early days.
So I will put her forward as my first great Verdian-Wagnerian.
With her breakthrough success in 1964 as Leonora in Trovatore at Covent Garden (CD CG HERITAGE), she continued over the next five years to build her career equally dividing her singing between both great composers. 1965 - Sieglinde - Santuzza . 1966 Elizabeth De Valois - Gutrune. 1968 Aida - Eva.
1969 - Desdemona - Kundry. All of the Italian roles at Covent Garden. She would later in the seventies go onto become one of the great post-war Brünnhildes and Isoldes. She mantained the italian roles all through her career.

[ahinton]

DAME GWYNETH JONES
As this is equally Verdi's bi-centenary as well as Wagner's, I thought of this thread when reading Barbirollians post on overacting and he mentioned not having known that Gwyneth Jones was such a great Verdi singer in her early days.
So I will put her forward as my first great Verdian-Wagnerian.
With her breakthrough success in 1964 as Leonora in Trovatore at Covent Garden (CD CG HERITAGE), she continued over the next five years to build her career equally dividing her singing between both great composers. 1965 - Sieglinde - Santuzza . 1966 Elizabeth De Valois - Gutrune. 1968 Aida - Eva.
1969 - Desdemona - Kundry. All of the Italian roles at Covent Garden. She would later in the seventies go onto become one of the great post-war Brünnhildes and Isoldes. She mantained the italian roles all through her career.

Indeed - though it has also to be admitted that none of those distinguished singers - or indeed any other distinguished singers, for that matter - has ever excelled equally as an exponent of the piano music of this year's other great bicentenarian, Alkan, whom let's not forget!...

[slarty]

Indeed - though it has also to be admitted that none of those distinguished singers - or indeed any other distinguished singers, for that matter - has ever excelled equally as an exponent of the piano music of this year's other great bicentenarian, Alkan, whom let's not forget!...

I totally agree, Alkan should not be forgotten. I would gladly expand the thread, but I don't think my favourite Alkan exponent was much of a singer - Raymond Lewenthal.
Was'nt he just the greatest?

[ahinton]

I totally agree, Alkan should not be forgotten. I would gladly expand the thread, but I don't think my favourite Alkan exponent was much of a singer - Raymond Lewenthal.
Was'nt he just the greatest?

I don't know about "the greatest", but he was splendid without doubt and one of the early exponents of Alkan in the revival of interest in the composer's work that was principally spearheaded by him, John Ogdon and Ronald Smith, with the encouragement of Humphrey Searle, with whom I studied not long after all this began; we all owe a great debt to all three pianists and to Searle for what has developed into a far more widespread appreciation of Alkan today.

[Petrushka]

Has a thread ever gone off topic so quickly?

[slarty]

Never mind Petrushka, the thread never even got to first base.

[Petrushka]

Never mind Petrushka, the thread never even got to first base.

Not much knowledge of Verdi I'm afraid but you might consider Jon Vickers who had a foot in both camps. As well as a certain Placido Domingo.

[slarty]

I would agree with you about Jon Vickers, his art was to develop each and every characterisation of every role he sang to the highest level of musical performance and great and profound depth of feeling. Although he only ever sang 4 wagner roles (and learned 5) his interpretations will always be held up as being the best of his generation or even arguably the best of all time. His Tristan centainly qualifies in the second category, even greater than Melchior. His Siegmund and Parsifal were amongst the best of time. Coupled with Verdian interpretations such as Don Carlo, Otello, Riccardo(Ballo) and Radames all of which he sang with the greatest distinction and all of which I was lucky to have seen in the opera house, qualifies him in my thread as great at both.
Domingo will always be remembered as a great Verdian, but not as a Wagnerian tenor. This was his ambition to sing every role possible, and while he did manage to navigate his way through some of Wagner's tougher roles, it was in a much more superficial manner. It is very difficult to take an interpretation seriously when the quality of diction is so poor, and Domingo's diction in german was awful.
No, Domingo was great at Verdi,(i don't include his new career as a baritone) but merely good at wagner.

[ahinton]

Has a thread ever gone off topic so quickly?

No idea; try me again and I'll see what I can do. My intention here, however, was not to disrupt the thread but to colour it with the third part of the bicentennial aspect of the subject.

As you were...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Maria Callas?

[Flosshilde]

Domingo was great at Verdi, ... but merely good at wagner.

[verismissimo]

DAME GWYNETH JONES
As this is equally Verdi's bi-centenary as well as Wagner's, I thought of this thread when reading Barbirollians post on overacting and he mentioned not having known that Gwyneth Jones was such a great Verdi singer in her early days.
So I will put her forward as my first great Verdian-Wagnerian.
With her breakthrough success in 1964 as Leonora in Trovatore at Covent Garden (CD CG HERITAGE), she continued over the next five years to build her career equally dividing her singing between both great composers. 1965 - Sieglinde - Santuzza . 1966 Elizabeth De Valois - Gutrune. 1968 Aida - Eva.
1969 - Desdemona - Kundry. All of the Italian roles at Covent Garden. She would later in the seventies go onto become one of the great post-war Brünnhildes and Isoldes. She mantained the italian roles all through her career.

I think this is an interesting question, slarty, but one with a shortage of obvious answers. I immediately thought of the great Danish dramatic tenor Helge Roswaenge. Surely he would qualify. But in reality, although he performed lots of Verdi, he only ever performed Parsifal on stage (at Bayreuth) and otherwise avoided Wagner except for a few records (78s that is).

I'll think on!

[LHC]

What about Ramon Vinay? He was the pre-eminent Otello of his day and also sang several other Verdi roles. But he was also renowned for his performances of the chief Wagner roles and sung at Bayreuth many times. His roles included Siegmund, Tristan, Parsifal and Tannhauser.

Like Domingo, he began his career as a baritone and returned to this repertoire towards the end of his career, singing Scarpia, Falstaff, Telramund and Iago. Indeed he is said to be the only singer to have sung both Otello and Iago on stage (so far anyway).

Vinay was certainly more idiomatic than Domingo in his Wagner roles, and was also a more convincing baritone. If you haven't heard him, his recordings are well worth seeking out.

[slarty]

Bravo LHC, I would certainly include Vinay. He was one of the greatest Otello's of the 20th century and his Tristan and Siegmund were equally as pre-eminent. His telramund was splendid and also his Iago which is, as you say, probably unique.
Going back further ,I will nominate Elizabeth Rethberg, whose distinguished career in Europe and at the Met before the war included many great Verdi portrayals and the Wagner heroines , Eva, Elsa and Elizabeth, before finally ruining her voice singing the Siegfried Brunnhilde.

[slarty]

Bravo LHC, I would certainly include Vinay. He was one of the greatest Otello's of the 20th century and his Tristan and Siegmund were equally as pre-eminent. His telramund was splendid and also his Iago which is, as you say, probably unique.
Going back further ,I will nominate Elizabeth Rethberg, whose distinguished career in Europe and at the Met before the war included many great Verdi portrayals and the Wagner heroines , Eva, Elsa and Elizabeth, before finally ruining her voice singing the Siegfried Brunnhilde.