Conquering Wagner.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

OK, put like that, I see what you mean.

[Bert Coules]

Thanks. It doesn't help, as you said, that directors all too frequently portray Siegfried as a heavy-handed bully and Mime as a cuddly, harmless, downtrodden old thing. And it also doesn't help, of course, that it's hardly ever possible to cast Siegfried convincingly: put the average aging burly heldentenor up against the average character tenor and the misconception's already more than halfway established.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And I suppose Siegfried's shoddy upbringing would have cast a shadow over his character, not to mention the problems of being the child of an incestuous relationship.

[Bert Coules]

The recent ENO production had a splendid Siegried (and to my shame I can't recall his name) who played the character as a totally convincing teenager, sullen, happy, energetic, lazy, depressed, lost, the lot. And he was up against a wholly malevolent Mime. I didn't care for that Ring as a whole, but those two portrayals were spot on.

I don't think you can say that Siegfried's parentage had any undesirable effects: I suspect that the bad points about your Mum and Dad being brother and sister are rather overshadowed by the good things arising from them both being half-god...

[Flosshilde]

Is there any Wagner lover who wouldn't want to see the premiere of the Ring?

Probably not - this one included, but only out of curiosity, not because I thought that it was the best way to present it. In fact, Wagner was pretty unhappy with it, & said it would be better the following year. Unfortunately lack of funds prevented it being put on again at Bayreuth for a good few years, & after Wagner died Cosima put a stop to any deviations from what she believed was 'the master's' wishes.

[Flosshilde]

Mime is a calculating opportunist thief and liar, who sees Siegfried as a means to an end, no more,

Well, yes, but then hasn't Wotan done just the same? Wotan has essentially 'created' Siegfried to be the hero who recovers the ring & returns it to the Rhine - suppopsedly acting of his own will , but in reality doing what Wotan wants. Of course, it all goes wrong.

Re. the portrayal of Siegfried - Scottish Opera's Siegfried was also excellent; a grumpy teenager who thought he knew everything.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The recent ENO production had a splendid Siegried (and to my shame I can't recall his name) who played the character as a totally convincing teenager, sullen, happy, energetic, lazy, depressed, lost, the lot. And he was up against a wholly malevolent Mime. I didn't care for that Ring as a whole, but those two portrayals were spot on.

That sound just about right!

I don't think you can say that Siegfried's parentage had any undesirable effects: I suspect that the bad points about your Mum and Dad being brother and sister are rather overshadowed by the good things arising from them both being half-god...

But the myth does rather gloss over the likelihood of congentital problems. Instead, is seems to dwell on Siegfried's "pedigree" status.

[Bert Coules]

A fair point about Wotan: no-one in the Ring is entirely black or white. But Siegmund appears to feel nothing but love for the man who raised him, never suspecting that ulterior motives were involved, or that his childhood was anything other than affectionate and nurturing; the exact opposite is true of Siegfried.

I looked him up: ENO's Siegfried was Richard Berkeley-Steele.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well, yes, but then hasn't Wotan done just the same? Wotan has essentially 'created' Siegfried to be the hero who recovers the ring & returns it to the Rhine - suppopsedly acting of his own will , but in reality doing what Wotan wants. Of course, it all goes wrong.

Wotan - now there's an irresponsible character - a womaniser, easily tempted, who gets others to make up for his own greed and follies. I've met may Wotans.

[Flosshilde]

A fair point about Wotan: no-one in the Ring is entirely black or white. But Siegmund appears to feel nothing but love for the man who raised him, never suspecting that ulterior motives were involved, or that his childhood was anything other than affectionate and nurturing; the exact opposite is true of Siegfried.

I looked him up: ENO's Siegfried was Richard Berkeley-Steele.

Wotan was Siegmund & Sieglinde's father, & was Siegmund's 'comrade in arms', so it's not surprising that Siegmund had nothing but love for him. (& did Siegmund realise who the man who left the sword in the tree was?)
But despite that, Siegmund & Sieglinde were still Wotan's proxies - the first stage in bringing about the being who could do what Wotan could not.

[Bert Coules]

Yes, but apart from the question of natural fatherhood, the Siegmund/Wotan and Siegfried/Mime situations are exact parallels. The child in each case was raised with one end in view, and it was the same end - if Fricka hadn't intervened, it would have been Siegmund, not his son, who fought Fafner and regained the Ring. So the fact that the two childhoods were so markedly different is significant. Siegfried, after all, took a very long time before he found out for sure that Mime wasn't his father, so you can't ascribe his feelings of hatred toward him to a lack of natural filial affection.

[Mandryka]

Of course there should always be a horse, if only because there are no real laughs in the Ring until Siegfried makes his little mistake on meeting Brunnhilde for the first time. I suppose the appearance of the toad in Rheingold might also raise a smile.

In the Goodall Ring, you can hear the audience laughter at those 'strategic' moments in Rheingold and Siegfried (when Siegfried tries out his horn, not when he discovers Brunhilde).

One of the better things about Tony Palmer's otherwise indigestible Wagner film of 1983 is the recreation of the opening of Rheingold: you could almost believe you were there! Yes, of course we'd all have loved to be have been at Bayreuth in the summer of 1876.....

[Bert Coules]

In the Goodall Ring, you can hear the audience laughter at those 'strategic' moments in Rheingold and Siegfried (when Siegfried tries out his horn...).

The power of opera in English! I have never heard an audience react in any way to the line "Das tönt nicht recht", but Siegfried's rueful, self-mocking "Well, that's not right" always got a lovely affectionate laugh at the Coli.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The power of opera in English! I have never heard an audience react in any way to the line "Das tönt nicht recht", but Siegfried's rueful, self-mocking "Well, that's not right" always got a lovely affectionate laugh at the Coli.

The truth is, I suspect, that for much of the time, the audience has only a vague idea of what is going on when the language is not English. There may well be surtitles, but who really wants to watch them? There will be good linguists in the audience, and there will be those who have researched the libretto. But perhaps a majority will be ever so slightly at sea.

[Bert Coules]

The truth is, I suspect, that for much of the time, the audience has only a vague idea of what is going on when the language is not English.

I agree. And that, I'm sure, is one of the main reasons (along with poor staging of the moment) why Siegfried's "Das ist kein Mann" gets a laugh: it's one of the very few lines in the Ring which is immediately understandable even if you don't speak German.

There may well be surtitles, but who really wants to watch them?

I certainly don't: they make what should be a visceral, direct experience into something secondhand and thoroughly undramatic. And as for surtitles at the Coliseum, well, it was a bleak day when they were introduced.