Conquering Wagner.

[Tom Audustus]

My way in to Wagner was via Tanhauser as well. Attended a concert by the Bournmouth SO when a student in Southampton in the mid-70s. Can't remember what was in the first half, but the second half consisted of the Beethoven Violin Concerto played by Wolfgang Schneiderhan and then the Tannhauser Overture to finish. What a second half !!!!!! Just had to find a full recording in our local library and I was hooked, despite the silly story.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Can I suggest Die Meistersinger Act 3? If all you know is the Overture, it is magical to hear how the various themes are used.

[Mandryka]

I do agree with Bert - the libretto matters. I happen to love the stabreim, just the sound of the original German text; and it's easy these days to follow the text with a parallel translation.

I can't, however, listen to Wagner in English: changing the language, for me, has the effect of changing the character of the whole work, which means I can't enjoy the Goodall Ring, much though I'd like to.

[James Wonnacott]

Thanks for all your thoughts, everyone. I'll be buying a few CDs soon, I think

[Bert Coules]

I can't, however, listen to Wagner in English: changing the language, for me, has the effect of changing the character of the whole work...

You're not alone in feeling that, of course. My attitude has always been that the meaning of the words is more important than the way they sound, but I wouldn't deny that an English (or French or Italian or whatever) rendering finds it hard to match the attack and bite of the German (and also, sometimes, its melifluousness, though perhaps to a lesser extent). The best translators try their hardest to match both vowel sounds and consonants, with occasional happy results: Andrew Porter wrote a fascinating article on his own particular approach, which was published as an introduction to his Ring text.

Wagner himself was in favour of his works being performed in the language of the audience "for only then can the full impact and effect be obtained" (I'm quoting from memory, but that's pretty close). And not only was he scathing about poor translations, he was willing to change note-values and rework vocal lines to make a non-German text sing better.

Mandryka, I'm sorry that the Goodall Ring isn't for you: it really is a very fine performance, I think.

James, enjoy your voyage of discovery; I envy you so much, coming to all that splendour for the first time.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I do agree with Bert - the libretto matters.
I can't, however, listen to Wagner in English: changing the language, for me, has the effect of changing the character of the whole work, which means I can't enjoy the Goodall Ring, much though I'd like to.

I find it works in live performances, but on recordings, I do prefer the German text.
There was that famous quotation at the premiere of Peter Grimes, when a woman in the audience complained that it would have been better sung in the original language.

[Flosshilde]

There was that famous quotation at the premiere of Peter Grimes, when a woman in the audience complained that it would have been better sung in the original language.

Sometimes it's difficult to tell if something is being sung in English.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

True, the music can mask the words, but singing opera in the language of the audience may be preferable, even though some words may go unheard. I've seen many operas in English, and it does seem to work well in the opera house.

[Op. XXXIX]

Sometimes it's difficult to tell if something is being sung in English.

Very true. Several years ago I attended an English language opera and we still needed the supratitles!

[BBMmk2]

With some diction that siongers have, is quite audible, but there numerable times wehen that is nnot possible to hearwhat they are singing, especially from top draw singers.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Sometimes excessive vibrato destroys the words, but glossing over consonants and distorting vowels, in order to produce a more beautiful tone, can be culprits too.

[gradus]

Flosshilde's comment about Wagner wanting Bel Canto style voices in his works rang a bell but despite rummaging in Cosima's diaries, where I'd seen a similar remark attributed to RW, so far no luck. From memory I think the comment came up when he was holding forth on the voices he wanted to hear in Tristan and his desire for an italianate sound, but Wagner made so many pronouncements on singers, singing and almost everything under the sun, that you can hardly turn a page without Cosima recording yet another pearl of wisdom. Having said that I have to confess that I got drawn in again and what I intended to be ten minute trawl turned into an hour's read. The diaries are just so darn fascinating.

[Mandryka]

You're not alone in feeling that, of course. My attitude has always been that the meaning of the words is more important than the way they sound, but I wouldn't deny that an English (or French or Italian or whatever) rendering finds it hard to match the attack and bite of the German (and also, sometimes, its melifluousness, though perhaps to a lesser extent). The best translators try their hardest to match both vowel sounds and consonants, with occasional happy results: Andrew Porter wrote a fascinating article on his own particular approach, which was published as an introduction to his Ring text.

Wagner himself was in favour of his works being performed in the language of the audience "for only then can the full impact and effect be obtained" (I'm quoting from memory, but that's pretty close). And not only was he scathing about poor translations, he was willing to change note-values and rework vocal lines to make a non-German text sing better.

Mandryka, I'm sorry that the Goodall Ring isn't for you: it really is a very fine performance, I think.

James, enjoy your voyage of discovery; I envy you so much, coming to all that splendour for the first time.

I can't make up my mind about Goodall's Wagner: though it 'works' on its own terms, I can't help but feel it's not what the composer would have wanted. I'd agree with you about the singers - just a shame about the language!

[perfect wagnerite]

I can't make up my mind about Goodall's Wagner: though it 'works' on its own terms, I can't help but feel it's not what the composer would have wanted. I'd agree with you about the singers - just a shame about the language!

The fascinating thing about Goodall's Wagner is that it is the very antithesis of what Wagner wanted - but it still works triumphantly. There is ample documentary evidence that Wagner wanted his music played a lot faster than is the norm today - for example that he regarded the Meistersinger overture as ideally lasting between eight and nine minutes as distinct from the more usual ten to eleven minutes today. Slow, reverential Wagner is a legacy of the Cosima years at Bayreuth, when Wagner was transformed from a revolutionary and innovator into an icon of German nationalism. The faster speeds, combined with the lighter tone of the instruments of Wagner's day (and the fact that orchestral string players did not need to warm up the music with vibrato) would have meant that in theory at least it was easier to sing and came closer to Wagner's theatrical ideal.

Goodall's Wagner is magnificent and I would not want to be without it (even the Tristan recording where the orchestra clearly isn't up to the task). What I would like to hear is a proper HIP Ring - not like Rattle's Prom Rheingold of a few years ago, in which nineteenth-century instruments were used to support a late twentieth-century interpretation, but a properly thought-through interpretation in which old-style instruments are used in a way which matches the documentary evidence we have of what Wagner wanted. I think it would be a revelation.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Karl Bohm's Wagner was faster than many - rather surprising in view of the conductor's rather tempi in general.