Conquering Wagner.

[James Wonnacott]

Some may remember from the old Radio3 boards my bemoaning the fact that, much as I'd tried, I could only describe Wagner as "wonderful music spoiled by people yelling at each other" and asking for advice on an "entry point" (I think is the fashionable term) to his music.
Well, I decided yesterday to sit down with iplayer and listen to Tannhauser and, guess what? I enjoyed it!
I feel I've achieved something this Christmas

[antongould]

I'm very pleased for you James - I am still where you were before the iplayer moment- you have encouraged me to persevere!

[amateur51]

Bravo James! - a world of wonderful musical experience, both 'live' and on recordings now awaits you - enjoy!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I do remember the discussion on the BBC boards, and it's good to hear of your success in coming to terms with Wagner's music. Tannhauser was a good choice.

[Uncle Monty]

I too have had to persevere with all the yelling over the years

In the same way that golf is said to be a good way of ruining a country walk, I (as an orchestral player with scant serious singing experience -- and that isn't a typo for scat singing experience) spent a long time wishing the singing would go away and leave me to enjoy the wonderful orchestral sonorities. But at length even I have recognised that Wagner's music is all of a piece, and that "you can't have one without the other".

There are, though (I'm not sure if this is a good way to go, but it's a possibility), records of the Ring and Tannhauser without the words, which are a good listen on their own and give you a good idea of the musical shape, before you add in the yelling. Lorin Maazel, I think.

[Ferretfancy]

I remember being subjected to part of Die Walkure on 78s at our school music club, and praying for it to stop, or for the fibre needle to collapse (A not uncommon occurrence! ) I've come to love Wagner since, and a few years back bought the CD of that very performance, no fibre needles now, just Melchior, Lehmann, Bruno Walter and chills down the spine!
Holst called it "good old Wagnerian bawling" but I suspect he liked it really!

[BBMmk2]

I am glad that someone has taken the trouble to overcome the bawlingness of Wagner's music, depending on who you hear and what yopu see(stage propductions etc). The wonders of Wagner is a world worth travellin g to and explore oin great depth. The rewards are immense!!

[vinteuil]

I eventually got into Wagner in the most improbable surroundings. In the early 1980s I was posted to Riyadh where there was precious little to do in terms of social or cultural life - but the head of the CIA station was a serious music lover and audiophile, and every other weekend those so minded repaired to his compound where an afternoon would be devoted to the serious listening of an opera: full scores / libretti were provided, and in the 'interval' his wife would proved us with food and drink. So after a couple of years I returned to England with a fair knowledge of Italian and German opera, and the beginnings of a love of Wagner...

No doubt the Sa'udi intelligence services were listening in. I like to think some of them may have been able to enjoy the music. I suspect they were largely baffled...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The perception of Wagner as a composer who made his singers yell and scream for hours on end is not at all accurate. Much of it is intimately scored, the full orchestra being held in reserve for the big moments. It's still a strain for the singers, especially for Siegfried in the opera of that name, simply because there is so much for him to do, and not because he is expected to belt it out, fortissimo for nearly 5 hours.

[Simon]

Great stuff, James. I also like Wagner, though it's true that I've always picked out the good bits. I think you were fortunate to choose Tannhauser as a start. I should also try the Mastersingers - fun with good tunes and another great overture - and then maybe a biggie - Tristan and Isolde, which for me is his best drama, with the Liebestod his greatest aria. But others will disagree. :-)

Happy listening,

S-S!

[PatrickOD]

Well, at least Uncle Monty has grasped the important point that golf is NOT the ruination of a good walk.

[Flosshilde]

The perception of Wagner as a composer who made his singers yell and scream for hours on end is not at all accurate. Much of it is intimately scored, the full orchestra being held in reserve for the big moments. It's still a strain for the singers, especially for Siegfried in the opera of that name, simply because there is so much for him to do, and not because he is expected to belt it out, fortissimo for nearly 5 hours.

There is a comment attributed to Wagner to the effect that he wanted his singers to perform his music in a bel canto style (I can't find a source & I probably haven't got it quite right), which implies that his intention certainly wasn't to pitch his singers against the orchestra. In addition, I think the cowled pit at Bayreuth has a big impact on the balance between singers & orchestra (I've not been fortunate enough to experience it first-hand). Finally, the mid-nineteenth century orchestra wasn't as powerful as the modern orchestra.

[kernelbogey]

... asking for advice on an "entry point" (I think is the fashionable term) to his music

I recommend Walkuere Act I - a wonderful opera within an opera - and at an hour and a half, a tolerable length for an introduction.

[Mandryka]

My first exposure to Wagner was virtually my first exposure to opera, but so the idea that the singers were 'yelling' at each ohter never occurred to me. Frankly,when I decided to move on and explore other operatic composers, I was disappointed (going from Meistersinger to Verdi's Rigoletto was a lowering experience).

Tannhauser is probably Wagner's weakest mature opera, so you have the best yet to come!

[Bert Coules]

James, congratulations. And as Mandryka says, you've got a lot more - and greater - delights to come.

At the risk of riding my operatic hobby-horse yet again, I'd say this to anyone discovering Wagner: the words matter as much as the music. If you're fluent in German, great. If you're not, and you're listening to a German-language performance, follow the text. If you're watching a DVD, switch on the English subtitles. Try the ENO Ring recording in Andrew Porter's splendid translation, and the earlier Sadler's Wells Mastersingers, also conducted by Goodall (unfortunately the English version is clunky as hell in places but it's still a wonderful performance). There's a Flying Dutchman CD set in English too, but I wouldn't recommend that particular work to a newcomer: the highlights are fine but there are lengthy stretches of static dialogue which really bring everything to a halt.

Wagner didn't write long musical works that happen to include singers; he wrote theatrical stage pieces intended to be a fusion of all the arts: music, words, drama, scenery, lighting, special effects. Unfortunately, it's very rare for any production to succeed in every department, but at least with CDs you can supply the missing elements from your own imagination. But - please - don't just listen to the sound. The sense matters.

Oh - and anyone who really believes that Siegfried has to "belt it out fortissimo" for the entire evening has only heard some extremely bad performances. There's more tender lyricism in that role than in almost any other in the Ring.