Conquering Wagner.

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  • Pianorak
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 3128

    #76
    Originally posted by Bert Coules View Post
    Several Ring productions have used real fire in various places, with varying degrees of success. The use of practical flames doesn't have to equal realism, of course - it all depends on how they're employed.
    There was plenty of fire in the Richard Jones "Ring" at Covent Garden mid-1990s.
    My life, each morning when I dress, is four and twenty hours less. (J Richardson)

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    • Flosshilde
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 7988

      #77
      I think Bert really wants to team up with Dr Who & travel back to Bayreuth in 1876. Of course, he'd probably be as dissapointed with what he saw as Wagner was.

      Comment

      • Mr Pee
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 3285

        #78
        Originally posted by Pianorak View Post
        There was plenty of fire in the Richard Jones "Ring" at Covent Garden mid-1990s.
        And in the most recent ROH Ring, directed by Keith Warner. Oodles of fire, both in the "Magic Fire" scene and the last pages of Gotterdemmerung. I could feel the heat from my seat!!
        Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.

        Mark Twain.

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        • Bert Coules
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 763

          #79
          Is there any Wagner lover who wouldn't want to see the premiere of the Ring?

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          • Ferretfancy
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 3487

            #80
            Of course there should always be a horse, if only because there are no real laughs in the Ring until Siegfried makes his little mistake on meeting Brunnhilde for the first time. I suppose the appearance of the toad in Rheingold might also raise a smile.

            Comment

            • Bert Coules
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 763

              #81
              Originally posted by Ferretfancy View Post
              ...there are no real laughs in the Ring until Siegfried makes his little mistake on meeting Brünnhilde for the first time.
              That moment only draws a laugh if it's done badly. I'm quite convinced that it's not meant to be funny. Loge and the toad, on the other hand (and indeed Loge and several other moments)...

              Comment

              • Eine Alpensinfonie
                Host
                • Nov 2010
                • 20576

                #82
                There is very little humour in The Ring, but the Draco Malfoys of this world (I don't mean our very own DracoM) would enjoy Siegfried's cruel treatment of Mime. For that reason, I've never particularly liked the character of Siegfried.

                Comment

                • Bert Coules
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 763

                  #83
                  Siegfried's cruel treatment of Mime? What about Mime's horrendous treatment of Siegfried? Mime is a calculating opportunist thief and liar, who sees Siegfried as a means to an end, no more, and raises him in a coldly calculating way for one reason only: to win for Mime the power and position he believes he deserves. Mime wants nothing more than for Siegfried to do what he was trained to do and then die, and uses his position of strength over the boy to do everything he can to ensure that that happens. How can Siegfried's fumbling and naive attempts to escape from that fate possibly be seen as "cruel treatment"?

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                  • gradus
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 5631

                    #84
                    John Culshaw - to mix threads for a minute - takes up this very point in his accompanying notes to the Decca Siegfried. It seems that, 'Wagner had strong feelings about the characterisation of Mime, but despite his writings - and Renest Newman's subsequent campaign -there still seems to-day an impression that Mime is a pathetic kindly old dwarf (a sort of Wagnerian predecessor of Walt Disney's Grumpy), who had a tough time in Rheingold at the hands of his wicked brother Alberich and who has somehow redeemed himself by tending the young Siegrfried. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mime is the embodiment of avarice and treachery, but it is all on a minor scale compared with the schemings of Alberich with whom one can occasionally sympathise'.
                    Despite that, I too share the difficulty of liking Siegfried as a character.

                    Comment

                    • gradus
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 5631

                      #85
                      Renest?

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                      • Bert Coules
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 763

                        #86
                        Originally posted by gradus View Post
                        Despite that, I too share the difficulty of liking Siegfried as a character.
                        Yes, I can understand that. While the best Siegfrieds and their directors have presented him as sympathetic and noble, yearning, lost and alone, it's far more common to see the bullying ruffian, even though - as you say - that approach not only the text and the music but also Wagner's own published comments.

                        Renest?
                        Ah, good old Renest Mewnam. I knew who you meant. Incidentally, I wonder if many people realise these days just why Mr Newman was so named?

                        Comment

                        • Eine Alpensinfonie
                          Host
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 20576

                          #87
                          Originally posted by Bert Coules View Post
                          Siegfried's cruel treatment of Mime? What about Mime's horrendous treatment of Siegfried? Mime is a calculating opportunist thief and liar, who sees Siegfried as a means to an end, no more, and raises him in a coldly calculating way for one reason only: to win for Mime the power and position he believes he deserves. Mime wants nothing more than for Siegfried to do what he was trained to do and then die, and uses his position of strength over the boy to do everything he can to ensure that that happens. How can Siegfried's fumbling and naive attempts to escape from that fate possibly be seen as "cruel treatment"?
                          True, Mime is a rogue, but Siegfried is not aware of the deception while he is taunting the dwarf. I suppose some people are more sympathetic towards Mime since Third Reich performances portrayed him as a Jew being taunted by an Aryan.

                          Comment

                          • Bert Coules
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 763

                            #88
                            I'm not sure I see taunting in any of Siegfried's exchanges with Mime. Which particular lines have you in mind?
                            Last edited by Bert Coules; 03-01-11, 15:46.

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                            • Eine Alpensinfonie
                              Host
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 20576

                              #89
                              Originally posted by Bert Coules View Post
                              I'm not sure I see "taunting" in any of Siegfried's exchanges with Mime. Which particular lines have you in mind?
                              For most of Act I, Siegried is hightly unpleasant to Mime, and insults and teases him. For example:

                              Zu zwei komm' ich, dich besseru zwicken...

                              Comment

                              • Bert Coules
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 763

                                #90
                                What you see as taunting, I see as wholly justified and entirely understandable attempts to get some truth out of Mime after a lifetime of evasion and lies. Siegfried knows full well just what he's up against:

                                Seh' ich dir erst
                                mit den Augen zu,
                                zu übel erkenn' ich,
                                wie alles du tust...

                                When I look you in the eyes, all I see is evil in everything you do...


                                And explains exactly why he acts the way he does:

                                So muss ich dich fassen
                                um 'was zu wissen:
                                gutwillig
                                erfahr' ich doch nichts!

                                I'm forced to manhandle you to find anything out: I learn nothing by being kind!


                                And most intriguingly:

                                So musst' ich alles
                                ab dir trotzen:
                                kaum das Reden
                                hätt' ich erraten,
                                entwand ich's mit Gewalt
                                nicht dem Schüft!

                                I've had to force everything out of you. I wouldn't even be able to speak if I hadn't made you teach me!
                                Last edited by Bert Coules; 03-01-11, 16:24.

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