Opera Lovers unite against the ROH and the BBC in unholy alliance

[Flosshilde]

But who is he?

I just Googled him, & came across a rather nasty snide article from the Telegraph - which I won't link to, as it's really only worth hanging on a nail in the outhouse.

[french frank]

The alternative strand of this discussion may be continued here if wished.

[french frank]

I suppose my main problem with this kind of programme is that the BBC appears to view it as a valid alternative to just broadcasting "straight" TV programmes of or about classical music (outside the Proms season), with the consequence that we now get less of these.

Yes, if these programmes were in addition to serious programmes, essentially part of popular entertainment, it wouldn't matter. But popularising classical music seems to be at the expense of the real stuff.

[Flosshilde]

Yes, if these programmes were in addition to serious programmes, essentially part of popular entertainment, it wouldn't matter. But popularising classical music seems to be at the expense of the real stuff.

This seems to suggest that 'popularised' classical music isn't 'real', & sets up a conflict between the two which shouldn't exist. It's more a question of how it's done. Nige (Kennedy) could be said to have 'popularised' classical music by being un-stuffy about it, but still taking it deadly seriously & being very good. Kate (Jenkins) could claim to popularise it but instead bastardises it (& isn't very good anyway). TV shows like Maestro (which I haven't seen) are difficult to assess - even for people who enjoy classical music the role of the conductor might not be very clear, & a programme examining that role could be useful. If it needs to be done as a competition it should perhaps be done, like the Young Musician, with people who have some experience already.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

If it needs to be done as a competition it should perhaps be done, like the Young Musician, with people who have some experience already.

[french frank]

This seems to suggest that 'popularised' classical music isn't 'real', & sets up a conflict between the two which shouldn't exist. It's more a question of how it's done.

Then it was the way I expressed myself. Of course, I meant surrounding the music with all the razzmatazz of popular entertainment: a mixture of I'm a Celebrity and the Miss World competition.

It could well be right that opera makes a good entry into classical music (and the BBC does seem to have plugged it recently, as did Operatunity), but with much of it sung in languages other than English, it still needs a bit of background work.

[MrGongGong]

Yes, I get the impression the Beeb no longer trusts unadulterated classical music to hold the viewer/listener's attention :

I"m not sure that there isn't a large (not massive ) amount of "beer tasted better when I was a lad" about some of these statements ?
If I cast my mind back to my youth I remember going to see Stimmung at Liverpool Cathedral followed by The Rite Of Spring at the Phil followed by Tangerine Dream at the Cathedral followed by Cage and Cunningham at the Everyman followed by Teardrop Explodes at Erics followed by Verdi's Requiem at the Metropolitan Cathedral etc etc they all seem in retrospect to be next to each other yet probably happened over many years.

Also (and yes it's the context thing again ..............) Television has become (it could have become something else of course) a predominantly narrative medium, a series of "stories". "Unadulterated classical music" really doesn't work in this context , it does work in a live context (or should that be "live" ?).

[Flosshilde]

all the razzmatazz of popular entertainment: a mixture of I'm a Celebrity and the Miss World competition.

I think that people who are serious about 'pop' music - I mean the people who would be devotees of John Peel - hate the way in which X Factor etc have trivialised pop music.

[aeolium]

Where TV coverage of classical music has changed is that the narrative about the story or stories peripheral to classical music has enormously increased compared with the coverage of the music itself. This is most obviously seen in the coverage of the BBC Young Musician of the Year competition where not many years back there was not only a lot more coverage of the earlier rounds but a lot more footage of performance rather than biography or chat which now takes up a large part of the programme. It's also seen in documentaries such as those by Simon Russell Beale on the history of the symphony - there's just a lot more film of Beale himself walking round European cities and chatting with various people, whereas with the older Tony Palmer bio-documentaries e.g. the one on Respighi the presenter never appears: there is merely a voiceover and much more of the actual music. It is still very much narrative but just narrative in a different way, with the emphasis firmly on the object of the narrative.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I"m not sure that there isn't a large (not massive ) amount of "beer tasted better when I was a lad" about some of these statements ?

Possibly, although Beer has never tasted better IMO! But I do remember hearing Berio for the first time when I was about 13 on Aquarius (the ITV - I repeat, ITV - precursor of The South Bank Show) and regular-ish televised performances of the Second Viennese School on Beeb2 (always introduced by a conversation between Brian Keith and Alexander Goehr) as well as "traditional" repertoire from the "Classical" and Jazz worlds. As recently as twenty years ago, Channel 4 broadcast the Sawallisch Ring cycle, had a series of programmes on Birtwistle, the series Sinfonietta and even a series in French in which Boulez introduced selections of post-WW2 masterpieces. There was the televising of Birtwistle's Gawain, Janacek operas and my introduction to A Love Supreme. And you could go out for a Rave, have a curry and throw up in the back of a Taxi and still have change from a thrup'ny bit!

Also (and yes it's the context thing again ..............) Television has become (it could have become something else of course) a predominantly narrative medium, a series of "stories". "Unadulterated classical music" really doesn't work in this context , it does work in a live context (or should that be "live" ?).

True. Sadly, as the number of TV stations have increased, the variety of content has shrunk. Audiences are trusted with complex, multi-layered narrative dramas such as The Killing (and even the plots of Doctor Who require a level of concentration with which I'm sure '60s viewers wouldn't have found easy to cope), but Televised Music seems only to be trusted in short 3-4 minute soundbursts. Even in those superb Scorsese documentaries on the Blues and George Harrison. The most ephemeral product of "Classical Music", the Conductor, is reduced to "friendly, bite-sized" caricature, the performances on Young Musician of the Year clipped and spoken over and emphasis shifted to the sub-Masterchef/Strictly presentation of the "competition winners". And that's yer lot for "Classical Music" apart from 20% of the Proms. Jazz? Errr ... that detective chap likes to listen to it, doesn't he?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think that people who are serious about 'pop' music - I mean the people who would be devotees of John Peel - hate the way in which X Factor etc have trivialised pop music.

(Not sure they'd like Rock being referred to as "Pop", though, Floss; even in inverted commas! )

[Petrushka]

I'd agree that if the BBC did some serious music programmes then Maestro wouldn't matter. All this programme really is is what they call 'car crash' television. The potential for seeing 'celebs', completely out of their comfort zone, falling flat on their hooters constitutes the viewer attraction rather than any interest in classical music. Television has a longer history of doing this kind of thing than many would think.

Does anyone remember a BBC2 series many years ago when Zubin Mehta put some tyro conductors through the mill in a masterclass with the Israel PO? It made for good television and I learnt a good bit from it but the intent was serious and I'd like to see something like that again.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Does anyone remember a BBC2 series many years ago when Zubin Mehta put some tyro conductors through the mill in a masterclass with the Israel PO? It made for good television and I learnt a good bit from it but the intent was serious and I'd like to see something like that again.

Yes: part of a series which included Elizabeth Schwartzkopff, Jorge Bolet, Paul Tortelier and Jaqueline DuPre (who had to teach with her eyes and voice alone). I remember one of Mehta's students was heavily pregnant - her "bump" occasionally prevented the celli from seeing the Leader!
And Mehta (the absolute swine! ) stopped one of the students to demonstrate that the orchestra could carry on playing - The Rite of Spring! - without him!

[MrGongGong]

I think that people who are serious about 'pop' music - I mean the people who would be devotees of John Peel - hate the way in which X Factor etc have trivialised pop music.

Indeed
The most serious musicians I ever meet are teenagers in bands !
What these types of shows do is present people acting, they are sometimes acting as musicians and singers (not sure about drummers ) but it's all a thespfest. One can trace a line in music education history where programme music becomes seen as a means of "introducing" music to people, hence the reliance on "story". There really is only ONE narrative nowadays ........ it's always a race against time, struggle against illness, struggle against oneself, heroic triumph etc etc

Without really engaging in what the real content of music IS (and it's not the mechanics of harmony or even "facts" about composers etc ) we will only ever get this version, and I guess most people in TV haven't read much Dahlhaus

[Rolmill]

I"m not sure that there isn't a large (not massive ) amount of "beer tasted better when I was a lad" about some of these statements ?

Probably some element of rose-tinted spectacles, but not a large element IMO. Several posters have compared current coverage of BBC YMofY unfavourably with the past and there seems to be general agreement that the problem (from our pov) is the gradual shift in focus away from the music and the performances towards the performer and his/her "story", and that this is indicative of a general trend in the presentation of classical music on tv. This is not to say, of course, that earlier times didn't suffer from their own faults (sometimes stuffy, unimaginative or patronising presentation), but at least these seemed to stem from a belief that the music was good enough not to need "help" to make it interesting.

Television has become ... a predominantly narrative medium, a series of "stories". "Unadulterated classical music" really doesn't work in this context , it does work in a live context.

Yes, I agree - the problem lies with the imposed "context", the requirement for some kind of "story"; and (as was pointed out previously), it's a problem which can affect presentation of all music, not just classical. Though I wonder whether this view of television as now story-based works less well when applied to other areas, such as sport? Football matches are shown in full, without adulteration - and the tv company is given a hard time when shoddy direction results in action being missed (e.g. through bad timing of a replay).

I suppose the real problem is that television companies don't like gearing their (cultural, arts, even sports) programmes to aficionados, preferring to aim them at the more general viewer - because they are easier to make and more likely to generate larger audiences. The explosion of tv channels just intensifies the competition for the audience-seeking middle-ground and actually reduces the attractiveness (to the tv company) of high quality (aka "elitist" ) programming. That's why the retreat of our publicly funded broadcaster from such programming values is so deplorable and, ultimately, self-defeating.