Innocence - ROH

[RichardB]

'hybrid' was OK for me, if we're talking about combining forms to make something distinct from either - like cultivating a beautiful tea rose from a spiny hedge rose and a rough climber.

That was the kind of connotation I had in mind. At the same time one can imagine ways of articulating the drama/music relationship which might blend them into a single indivisible whole, or have them proceed in parallel as separate layers, or have one completely subsume the other, or some combination of or alternation between these; using classically "operatic" voices and/or other kinds, anything between an orchestra, individual instruments, electroacoustic resources; on a stage or in some different kind of spatial arrangement, and so on. The traditional opera house doesn't offer this kind of flexibility to creative artists, or if it does, composers like Benjamin, Ades or Saariaho aren't interested in exploring it. If we start from the idea that one of the most important things a contemporary creative artist can do is to demonstrate the possibility of imaginative freedom, as a pointer to a wider conception of emancipated thinking and doing, submitting to the constrictions of the opera house seems like giving up before you start.

[Serial_Apologist]

That was the kind of connotation I had in mind. At the same time one can imagine ways of articulating the drama/music relationship which might blend them into a single indivisible whole, or have them proceed in parallel as separate layers, or have one completely subsume the other, or some combination of or alternation between these; using classically "operatic" voices and/or other kinds, anything between an orchestra, individual instruments, electroacoustic resources; on a stage or in some different kind of spatial arrangement, and so on. The traditional opera house doesn't offer this kind of flexibility to creative artists, or if it does, composers like Benjamin, Ades or Saariaho aren't interested in exploring it. If we start from the idea that one of the most important things a contemporary creative artist can do is to demonstrate the possibility of imaginative freedom, as a pointer to a wider conception of emancipated thinking and doing, submitting to the constrictions of the opera house seems like giving up before you start.

Such ideas were openly available back in the 70s when we had street theatre, in weekend parks and at seaside resorts, not just political demonstrations. Anyone remember the Red Ladder Theatre Group, or, more magnificently, John Fox's Burnley-based travelling Welfare State, which utilised satire, classical and other generic pastiche, folk music, jazz, improvised music with and without electronics with poetry, circus spectacle and notably ice sculptures in performances in parks, care homes and shopping precincts? Such performances would be carefully themed to the history and " underground" history of places visited. In Europe such practices might be said to have gone back to the origins of opera in street parade and pageant, which became common in the black communities in the Southern States in the second half of the C19, but we seem to have dropped so much, this not being helped by government legislation banning unlicensed demonstrations and parades along with noise "causing disturbance", because one solution for opera is taking it out of the houses - indeed this was happening to some degree during lockdown for reasons of sheer survival.

[Master Jacques]

Whilst I am wary of making observations about fellow composers, it does occur to me - notwithstanding my earlier responses - to question whether the respective fates of The Tempest, Written on Skin or Innocence look likely to be "promptly forgotten within a few years" (or either "promptly" or "within a few years" - take your pick)...

Well, if not historically, then "forgotten" in the most important sense - i.e. that nobody will want to revive such hugely expensive spectacles, once the Flavour of the Month tag has disappeared. None of these three (unlike, say, the first composer's Powder Her Face) have enough artistic or theatrical interest - in the senses RichardB has identified - to give them lasting currency, even for the "museum rep" of the "major houses".

But the truth is, that these kind of ossified operas have had their day: a new kind of opera needs to come along, and we'll know it when we hear it.

[RichardB]

we'll know it when we hear it.

Probably one thing that needs to be dropped is the word "opera", which surely is just as much of an anachronism as "symphony". Although, as soon as you do that, you realise how difficult it is to talk about work that doesn't belong in preexistent categories or in some easily-categorised combination of any of them. But I think there are examples of work that might point the way to the new kind of work you're talking about: Robert Ashley and Harry Partch come to mind; also Stockhausen's Licht, much of which can't be performed in an opera house, for example the Cologne production of Sonntag and Birmingham Opera's Mittwoch, both of which took place in multiple spaces within the same building. From the other direction, Kagel's Staatstheater of 1970 uses the resources of an opera house but deconstructs them to the point that the result can't be described by any stretch as an opera. But these are fairly isolated examples because of course there's no structure in place to commission and produce work outside the conventions accepted by the composers we've been talking about. in their absence it becomes quite difficult to contemplate creating "a new kind of opera" - the two Stockhausen works mentioned weren't commissioned as wholes but piecemeal, one scene at a time, by different performing organisations, and neither was performed complete during the composer's lifetime.

[edashtav]

Probably one thing that needs to be dropped is the word "opera", which surely is just as much of an anachronism as "symphony". Although, as soon as you do that, you realise how difficult it is to talk about work that doesn't belong in preexistent categories or in some easily-categorised combination of any of them.
[…].

I wondered when ‘symphony’ would be added to ‘the fossils’.
I would question the lazy acceptance of ‘classical’ as a catch-all descriptor, as in ‘ClassicFM’.

[Bryn]

I wondered when ‘symphony’ would be added to ‘the fossils’.
I would question the lazy acceptance of ‘classical’ as a catch-all descriptor, as in ‘ClassicFM’.

But "ClassicFM! deploys as a shorter adjective with somewhat different meanings.

[Serial_Apologist]

I wondered when ‘symphony’ would be added to ‘the fossils’.
I would question the lazy acceptance of ‘classical’ as a catch-all descriptor, as in ‘ClassicFM’.

Threads such as this one have already been devoted to this question:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?5488-What-qualified-someone-to-be-called-a-classical-composer&highlight=classical+music

[edashtav]

Threads such as this one have already been devoted to this question:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...lassical+music

Thanks for the link.

[Master Jacques]

I would question the lazy acceptance of ‘classical’ as a catch-all descriptor, as in ‘ClassicFM’.

Hear, hear! I too object to this catch-all descriptor of an alleged "genre". I refuse point-blank to use it, especially not in print, unless applied to the classical period. I prefer "art music", which is properly imprecise, and allows for the huge number of patterns and forms which music covers. When current rock and pop are allowed so many divisions and subdivisions, it seems to me unacceptable to lump a plethora of art music forms together under this catch-all "classical".

[vinteuil]

I prefer "art music", which is properly imprecise

... or "music for grown-ups" as I call it.

This has been a stimulating and instructive discussion for which I'm grateful, many thanks. I agree that the current 'opera house' structures are not likely to be the place where important new directions in 'music + words + movement' will take off. But it would be nice to think that some kind of opera-house system might continue - to perform works designed for that environment. It wd be a shame if future generations were deprived of the chance to experience Rameau - Rossini - Wagner - Strauss - Debussy &c. Tho' the lord alone knows how such things could / should be funded without it becoming (even more of) a resource only available to a minuscule privileged class...

.

[Master Jacques]

... or "music for grown-ups" as I call it.

This has been a stimulating and instructive discussion for which I'm grateful. I agree that the current 'opera house' structures are not likely to be the place where important new directions in 'music + words + movement' will take off. But it would be nice to think that some kind of opera-house system might continue - to perform works designed for that environment. It wd be a shame if future generations were deprived of the chance to experience Rameau - Rossini - Wagner - Strauss - Debussy &c. Tho' the lord alone knows how such things could / should be funded without it becoming (even more of) a resource only available to a minuscule privileged class....

The funding and 'privilege' questions are a peculiarly British disease: in Germany, and much of the rest of Europe (as well as further East) opera-going is a normal, family activity which doesn't cost an arm and a leg. That is another aspect that has to change, if the operatic scene here is to grow the kind of new green shoots we'd all like to see. Wagner, Verdi and Handel don't need the kind of ridiculously expensive stagings they've lately been cursed by: that's something else which must change, if even the "opera museum" is to continue to function.