ROH Turandot - in the cinema

[Dave2002]

Funny you should say that. I’ve been going to the Met relays at Cineworld. They have been technically very poor. At the last one the sound was a bit too loud in Act 1 (Lohiengrin) . Then far too quiet in Act 2. It emerged that some one had asked for it to be turned down. They turned it up again and it was again slightly too loud . It then emerged that the amplification system in the cinema works in a series of steps and those were the only two viable volume options other than very very quiet and very loud. They also told me that on general showings there’s a similar system and disagreement within the audience over sound levels.

The ROH performances has been (locally ) at Vue cinemas where they tend have better amplification.

The Met sound was also very compressed in the cinema. At home in Radio 3 it sounded fine - more compressed than an R3 ROH relay though.

The sound emerging in the auditorium will go through so much amplification and processing before relay in your cinema I suspect the problem isn’t the Royal Opera’s.

Do you have any idea how many audio channels are transmitted for rendition in cinemas? It is - as you say - possible that there is considerable local processing - and also that the settings get tweaked [maybe badly, or inadvertently] by local managers. For example, if there are separate channels for solo voice, and general orchestras, chorus etc., then there might be a setting for the relative level of a solo part vs everything else.

Yes - possibly a solo singer does need some help against a massive orchestra, but having the settings too far up, then just causes other problems - distortion etc., and doesn't really work long term.

If settings aren't reset back to something sensible after a passage which [arguably may] require adjustment, then the overall effect could be very much ruined. Automated systems may not help, nor may tweaks by people who don't fully know what they are doing.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Do you have any idea how many audio channels are transmitted for rendition in cinemas? It is - as you say - possible that there is considerable local processing - and also that the settings get tweaked [maybe badly, or inadvertently] by local managers. For example, if there are separate channels for solo voice, and general orchestras, chorus etc., then there might be a setting for the relative level of a solo part vs everything else.

Yes - possibly a solo singer does need some help against a massive orchestra, but having the settings too far up, then just causes other problems - distortion etc., and doesn't really work long term.

If settings aren't reset back to something sensible after a passage which [arguably may] require adjustment, then the overall effect could be very much ruined. Automated systems may not help, nor may tweaks by people who don't fully know what they are doing.

I know that at Cineworld there’s only one audio feed - the final mix. I would be amazed if the Royal Opera House gave local cinemas an option of changing the balance between orchestra and voices. It would be a recipe for disaster. Are you sure that some one in the cinema just didn’t ask for the sound to be turned up?

It could also be that the sound sent by The ROH is something like Dolby 7.1 with the voices largely on the front of house speakers. It would only need something to go wrong with the other speakers to create the impression that the voices were too loud. But it doesn’t sound likely. Again I would be surprised if it’s possibl to easily fiddle about with these individual levels .

I went to see Tar at our local Vue and the Dolby 7.1 (?) sound on the Mahler 5 clips was sensational . So much so I wish they’d just broadcast the whole work.

The sound in the Met opera relays at tour local Cineworld is bog standard two channel stereo - no matter what the Met might be sending.

[Master Jacques]

Yes but Scarpia and Boris get their comeuppance. There is a sense of moral outrage that Turandot can have a innocent tortured and men killed and yet still get the hero at the end. Calaf is a paper thin character isn’t he ? The real problem though is that for all the magnificence of Turandot’s vocal outpourings there’s a kind of musical emptiness , almost cynicism , in there in a way that there isn’t with Mimi, Tosca , and Cio-Cio San. The slightly creepy sadistic side of Puccini ( also seen in Act 2 Tosca ) for me isn’t counteracted by the quality of the music.

Whether I have an inner Turandot rather than an inner Siegfried I leave for others to judge but I’m very glad I managed to marry some one without a scintilla of the former!

Surely the "moral outrage" about Turandot's behaviour is something we're meant to feel, just as the rest of the characters (even her father and the obedient torturers themselves) feel it onstage? To that extent, the "moral point" of the opera - if we're looking for one, which I suspect many listeners aren't - is that nobody is irredeemable, and that everyone deserves unconditional love and can be softened by it.

Calaf is only paper thin, I think, if we are happy to go by the text rather than by his extraordinarily memorable and powerful music. He is, of course, every bit as blinkered morally as the princess he so ruthlessly seeks. For me, the heart of the opera is the Act 1 finale, from "non piangere, Liu" onwards: everyone tries to stop him, to make him see "sense", but there is something in him way beyond any such idea, and he follows it, no matter what the "human" cost. That's rather grand, and when the action's clothed in such unforgettable music, Puccini seduces us into going along with it.

For what it's worth (not very much) I have profound doubts about the alleged "creepy sadism" of Puccini, which I think is a set-up from the unfortunate events of his private life and tells us nothing about his characters. In fact, the passive-aggressive behaviour of his "victimised" "little women" is often as dangerous as Turandot's belligerence.

Butterfly, in particular, is absolutely not a "victim", but the most determined, strong and uncompromising character in the whole of her - stupendously great - opera. She in particular has been grievously misunderstood, and is especially badly undersold by the 21st century, with its need to infantilise almost everything and everybody.

(PS. Though I am possibly alone in finding Scarpia scurvily treated - he believes in what he's doing, for sure - I fancy that Boris, as a good father and capable ruler, hardly deserves any "comeuppance" at all!)

[Barbirollians]

Yes but Scarpia and Boris get their comeuppance. There is a sense of moral outrage that Turandot can have a innocent tortured and men killed and yet still get the hero at the end. Calaf is a paper thin character isn’t he ? The real problem though is that for all the magnificence of Turandot’s vocal outpourings there’s a kind of musical emptiness , almost cynicism , in there in a way that there isn’t with Mimi, Tosca , and Cio-Cio San. The slightly creepy sadistic side of Puccini ( also seen in Act 2 Tosca ) for me isn’t counteracted by the quality of the music.

Whether I have an inner Turandot rather than an inner Siegfried I leave for others to judge but I’m very glad I managed to marry some one without a scintilla of the former!

In fact isn't Turandot the only Puccini heroine apart from Minnie who lives - Tosca, Mimi , Cio Cio San, Manon Lescaut all die.

[Ein Heldenleben]

In fact isn't Turandot the only Puccini heroine apart from Minnie who lives - Tosca, Mimi , Cio Cio San, Manon Lescaut all die.

Magda in La Rondine (boyfriend leaves ) makes it alive to the curtain as does Giorgetta in Il Tabarro (boyfriend is killed).

[Dave2002]

I know that at Cineworld there’s only one audio feed - the final mix. I would be amazed if the Royal Opera House gave local cinemas an option of changing the balance between orchestra and voices. It would be a recipe for disaster. Are you sure that some one in the cinema just didn’t ask for the sound to be turned up?

It could also be that the sound sent by The ROH is something like Dolby 7.1 with the voices largely on the front of house speakers. It would only need something to go wrong with the other speakers to create the impression that the voices were too loud. But it doesn’t sound likely. Again I would be surprised if it’s possibl to easily fiddle about with these individual levels .

I went to see Tar at our local Vue and the Dolby 7.1 (?) sound on the Mahler 5 clips was sensational . So much so I wish they’d just broadcast the whole work.

The sound in the Met opera relays at tour local Cineworld is bog standard two channel stereo - no matter what the Met might be sending.

If the only source is the final mix, then the number of channels for ROH relays might have an impact. If the source is 5:1 or 7:1 then I suppose that if the overall level is turned up [someone in the audience can't hear ....!!] then other parts of the replay processing could kick in and really spoil the sound.

The venue we went to clearly had sound coming from different directions, so it didn't sound like stereo at all. The Met sounds in 2 channel mode probably don't sound too exciting.

[Ein Heldenleben]

If the only source is the final mix, then the number of channels for ROH relays might have an impact. If the source is 5:1 or 7:1 then I suppose that if the overall level is turned up [someone in the audience can't hear ....!!] then other parts of the replay processing could kick in and really spoil the sound.

The venue we went to clearly had sound coming from different directions, so it didn't sound like stereo at all. The Met sounds in 2 channel mode probably don't sound too exciting.

I reckon the Met do a 7.1 version (that’s what they used to have when Vue did the relays ) but at Cineworld it’s def two channel - screen speakers only .

[Dave2002]

I reckon the Met do a 7.1 version (that’s what they used to have when Vue did the relays ) but at Cineworld it’s def two channel - screen speakers only .

[Cineworld] Not even some sort of "fake" mid channel, then? Doesn't sound good to me.