ROH: Ring 2018

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

This is often cited as the central problem with the Ring as a whole and why Siegfried itself is the least popular of the four parts. Having a 'literal idiot' at the centre of your music drama is not a good idea - but Wagner couldn't really avoid it and the character does develop during Gotterdammerung.

Why not?

The character's development that you mention is important - it is Love that makes him "grow up": a balance to Alberich's renunciation of Love for power. (Wotan takes Brunnhilde's power from her against her will - but the Love/Power dichotomy is there too, of course.)

For all Wagner's (probable) intentions, none of the characters in the cycle are exactly "attractive" - the nearest thing are the incestuous twins - that's part of the power (ho-ho) of the work.

[Conchis]

Why not?

The character's development that you mention is important - it is Love that makes him "grow up": a balance to Alberich's renunciation of Love for power. (Wotan takes Brunnhilde's power from her against her will - but the Love/Power dichotomy is there too, of course.)

For all Wagner's (probable) intentions, none of the characters in the cycle are exactly "attractive" - the nearest thing are the incestuous twins - that's part of the power (ho-ho) of the work.

Siegfried the character becomes somewhat more sympathetic after Brunnhilde sends him off to perform (unspecified) heroic deeds in Gotterdammerung: he really is an innocent unequipped to deal with the world's workings (shouldn't his Auntie have attended to his education before kicking him out of the door?). But in his own titular opera, he is a bit of a boor - beating up Mime (who gets undeserved sympathy as a result), whining in the forest and then beating up another pensioner (and damaging said pensioner's valuable property) in Act 3! Not to mention killing an endangered (if dangerous) species. You might conclude borstal is the best place for the likes of him....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Siegfried the character becomes somewhat more sympathetic after Brunnhilde sends him off to perform (unspecified) heroic deeds in Gotterdammerung: he really is an innocent unequipped to deal with the world's workings (shouldn't his Auntie have attended to his education before kicking him out of the door?). But in his own titular opera, he is a bit of a boor - beating up Mime (who gets undeserved sympathy as a result), whining in the forest and then beating up another pensioner (and damaging said pensioner's valuable property) in Act 3! Not to mention killing an endangered (if dangerous) species. You might conclude borstal is the best place for the likes of him....

... but why is that "not a good idea" for a central character?

[Conchis]

... but why is that "not a good idea" for a central character?

Well, a lot of Regietheater types think it's a GREAT idea - so they can go to town on what an arse young S. is and give the 'Aryan ideal' (which he is supposed to represent) a good kicking in the process.

The idea of having a 'horrible' central character is as old as the hills, of course, but usually these 'charismatic villains' have a rapport with the audience that gets us on their side. I'm not sure we're ever entirely on Siegfried's side during Siegfried, but that begs the question: whose side are we on?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The idea of having a 'horrible' central character is as old as the hills, of course, but usually these 'charismatic villains' have a rapport with the audience that gets us on their side. I'm not sure we're ever entirely on Siegfried's side during Siegfried, but that begs the question: whose side are we on?

Which begs further the question "Why do we need to be 'on' a 'side' at all?" Isn't that as immature a concept (of drama, of "characterisation") as Siegfried himself?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Siegfried the character becomes somewhat more sympathetic after Brunnhilde sends him off to perform (unspecified) heroic deeds in Gotterdammerung: he really is an innocent unequipped to deal with the world's workings (shouldn't his Auntie have attended to his education before kicking him out of the door?). But in his own titular opera, he is a bit of a boor - beating up Mime (who gets undeserved sympathy as a result), whining in the forest and then beating up another pensioner (and damaging said pensioner's valuable property) in Act 3! Not to mention killing an endangered (if dangerous) species. You might conclude borstal is the best place for the likes of him....

The "unspecified heroic deeds" ( "Zu neue Taten ") consist of going on a Rhine cruise ( albeit without the services of a bespoke onboat tour guide ) drinking cocktails with a dodgy brother and sister and one of the all time great operatic creeps who any one can spot is a wrong 'un a mile off . He then swears blood brotherhood with one of them in a boy-scoutish ritual complete with blood-letting. And yet Siegfried is an authentic hero ...don't look to 19th century opera for character logic.

[Darkbloom]

Why not?

The character's development that you mention is important - it is Love that makes him "grow up": a balance to Alberich's renunciation of Love for power. (Wotan takes Brunnhilde's power from her against her will - but the Love/Power dichotomy is there too, of course.)

For all Wagner's (probable) intentions, none of the characters in the cycle are exactly "attractive" - the nearest thing are the incestuous twins - that's part of the power (ho-ho) of the work.

The only time Siegfried is ever really sympathetic is at the moment of his death. We never really get to see whether Brunnhilde had any effect on him because Hagen spiked his drink and he was under the influence of the Gibichungs after that.

[Conchis]

Returning to the underpinning 'concepts' of Warner's production - the idea of incest is one of the more interesting. It's been there from the beginning - I remember Terfel and Gasteen sharing a kiss back in 2007 at the end of Walkure, but with the current cast the kiss becomes a prolonged snog, after which B. seems to understand something fundamental about her father but seems understanding rather than upset about it.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Returning to the underpinning 'concepts' of Warner's production - the idea of incest is one of the more interesting. It's been there from the beginning - I remember Terfel and Gasteen sharing a kiss back in 2007 at the end of Walkure, but with the current cast the kiss becomes a prolonged snog, after which B. seems to understand something fundamental about her father but seems understanding rather than upset about it.

I hated the "snog" . It was just so obvious. If Wotan was so keen on incest why didn't he leave Siegmund alone . Liked the way Stefan Vinke leapt on Brunhilde at the end of Act 3 though ..

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If Wotan was so keen on incest why didn't he leave Siegmund alone

Because my friend Fricka has reminded him of his duties toward the sacred institution of marriage. It's because Sieglinde is married to Hunding (who has called on her to avenge her adultery) that Fricka demands Wotan upholds the institution. (Fricka isn't bothered about incest, per se - there's no objection from her about the other most prominent incestuous relationship [Aunt and nephew] - neither party in that couple are married to other people - it's adultery that really gets her ram.)

[Conchis]

I hated the "snog" . It was just so obvious. If Wotan was so keen on incest why didn't he leave Siegmund alone . Liked the way Stefan Vinke leapt on Brunhilde at the end of Act 3 though ..

Wotan sees incest as entirely natural and would have been happy to leave Siegmund alone had not Fricka stuck her oar in.

[Keraulophone]

Everyone concerned rose magnificently to the occasion last night, this time including Stefan Vinke I’m glad to say, and gave a totally gripping performance of the final part of this extraordinary work. I don’t really know what else to say at this point, having spent eight days in London away from my family to witness my first live Ring cycle, except to admit that I’ve been deeply affected by the experience; not overwhelmed by it, perhaps because of the amount of ground work that I‘d put in during the past few months. One of my three companions, however, who hadn’t heard any of Gōtterdämmerung before, was in floods of tears by the end, before deafening my right ear with her shouts and screams of ecstatic approval. It was good to see the orchestra duly acknowledged by coming onto the stage behind the principals, who turned to applaud them. There is no doubt in my mind that in Nina Stemme and John Lundgren I have enjoyed the finest voices available in roles that teeter near the brink of human possibility, but have also witnessed the rising star of Lise Davidsen, who will surely take up the mantle of Nilsson and Stemme one day. There must be something in the Scandinavian air...

[DracoM]

There must be something in the Scandinavian air.

There is, and it's based on first class musical education.

[Conchis]

Has Elsie Tanner said anything about this current revival?

I can't imagine it would be much to his taste....

[Cockney Sparrow]

Everyone concerned rose magnificently to the occasion last night, this time including Stefan Vinke I’m glad to say, and gave a totally gripping performance of the final part of this extraordinary work. I don’t really know what else to say at this point, having spent eight days in London away from my family to witness my first live Ring cycle, except to admit that I’ve been deeply affected by the experience; not overwhelmed by it, perhaps because of the amount of ground work that I‘d put in during the past few months. One of my three companions, however, who hadn’t heard any of Gōtterdämmerung before, was in floods of tears by the end, before deafening my right ear with her shouts and screams of ecstatic approval. It was good to see the orchestra duly acknowledged by coming onto the stage behind the principals, who turned to applaud them. There is no doubt in my mind that in Nina Stemme and John Lundgren I have enjoyed the finest voices available in roles that teeter near the brink of human possibility, but have also witnessed the rising star of Lise Davidsen, who will surely take up the mantle of Nilsson and Stemme one day. There must be something in the Scandinavian air...

I agree with you. I have seen the initial run and the two revivals. I've not travelled to see other stagings so have nothing else, except concert performances which have their own merits, with which to compare them. I have come to accept the sets - could definitely have been worse and this time, the vocal performances and musical direction were strong to excellent. A huge undertaking, and I am grateful I saw it. Yes, moving and memorable.