Reggie rehearsing Tristan in 1981

[Beef Oven!]

It is a very (very) personal opinion that Goodall was 'the best-ever Wagner conductor' and one that seems to be shared (largely) by right-wing Wagnerites, such as Michael Tanner.

There is certainly a 'cult of Goodall', although this cult seems to be much less vocal (and less populated) than it was some years ago; but Goodall's qualities as a Wagner conductor are still disputed, particularly outside Britain.

Of course, it can't have helped that he never worked with a first-rate ensemble (unless you discount the NPO Wotans Abschied recording on which he depped for Klemperer - though many - me included - would argue that the NPO was not a first rate ensemble at that time).

Oh, there will always will be some people who don't get the Reggie phenomenon. They're missing out, but you can't force people.

[MrGongGong]

To (badly?) paraphrase some of my academic friends
"there are epistemological differences which are often characterised as other things"

[Beef Oven!]

The key point is that some people feel that, if they regard certain performers (or composers) as execrable human beings on account of their despicable behaviour, they can’t bear to listen to their music. That’s a personal decision for everyone, but one that they can’t make for everyone else; and there’s a limit to how many times they need to justify their reaction to the same individuals.

Agreed. And that is the problem in this forum regarding Sir Reginald Goodall. It's every time he is mentioned there is at least two people who insist on posting about politics. It derails the thread every single time. We know all about it, it's banal.

It is also hypocritical given that for example, Clemens Krauss's collusion with the Nazi regime (and I don't try to mitigate that collusion in the same way that I would not mitigate Goodall's views, within the context of a music thread) in the 1930s was a significant act, that should trouble those who are troubled by these things, far more than what Goodall did. It strikes me as deeply insincere to the point of hypocrisy.

If it's not possible to manage these posters in the usual moderator's way, perhaps there could be a thread where people can post about the good the bad and the ugly politics of this or that artist, and forum members who are enthusiastic about this or that artist can enjoy an exchange of ideas information and have a discussion, which is what was happening with the first few posts.

[Richard Barrett]

Clemens Krauss's collusion with the Nazi regime (and I don't try to mitigate that collusion in the same way that I would not mitigate Goodall's views, within the context of a music thread) in the 1930s was a significant act, that should trouble those who are troubled by these things, far more than what Goodall did.

It does. But this is just whataboutery. It's surely a ridiculous idea that any time Goodall's political views are mentioned, those of a dozen other people have also to be registered, supposedly to avoid hypocrisy. The context in which Goodall's politics entered this thread was entirely legitimate. Of course they damaged his reputation. It is hard to believe that someone who might on the one hand be a sensitive and thoughtful musician might on the other hand subscribe to an inhuman and ultimately philistine ideology. Who knows when such questions might unfortunately again become immediate.

[Beef Oven!]

It does. But this is just whataboutery. It's surely a ridiculous idea that any time Goodall's political views are mentioned, those of a dozen other people have also to be registered, supposedly to avoid hypocrisy.

Indeed, that would be silly, but that wasn't my point. I was thinking about the fact that at least one person will post about Clemens Krauss and not feel the need to mention what he did in the 30s, but whilst not interested at all in Goodall, feels the need to draw out his politics; and when confronted with the facts of Krauss's activity, will seek to deny it.

It wasn't a terribly important point, but I just wanted to point out that there is also hypocrisy at play in all this.

[french frank]

I have started a new thread: Goodall rehearsing Tristan video on Talking About Music (with the initial posts from this thread) for anyone who wishes to continue that discussion. The general issue of the obnoxious views of Goodall et al may be continued here.

[Prommer]

OK.

Have found something else as a treat for you all - will start a new thread in a moment (if I may).

It is slightly related to this discussion, as it has some Wagner conducted by Goodall - the only live video of him in an actual performance I believe: the Wahn monologue from the ENO production of 1968, but performed as part of the ENO Gala for Lord Harewood in 1985.

[Conchis]

Yes it related to Krauss's behaviour in rushing in to one of the posts vacated by Jews being persecuted by the Nazis and removed, or by non-Jews resigning in protest - behaviour that assisted the Nazi machine to create hegemony over German life. Yes I got the connection.

But what do you mean by it? What's your point? Without further explanation I take it to mean that his behavior was no more than what lots of people did at the time. Or perhaps it's just human nature. I hope you're not excusing it.

Forgive me for believing, without further explanation from you, that that it's a casual justification for that kind of behaviour.

What on earth leads you to think I was 'excusing' it?

The point you (seem determined to) miss is that in any totalitarian political system, there will always be people willing to co-operate - whether because they are ambitious, frightened, not bothered, or have no moral compass. It is, of course, possible to have all these traits in combination. Of the 'usual suspects' always trotted out when Nazi collusion is mentioned, I can think of one (Schwarzkopf) who was obviously ambitious and with her eye on the main chance, another (Karajan) who grasped at a possibility of being the New Dawn's golden boy, a third (Furtwangler), who was no kind of anti-semite but was worried about losing his status and numerous others (Bohm being a good example, Orff a less ambiguous one) whose actions and possible motivations have been blurred by time. What all these people had in common was that they lived under a fascist regime that had power of life or death over them. The British have no equivalent of that in their recent experience (though, post-Brexit, who knows what lies in store?), so are hardly in a position to pontificate.

But Goodall lived in a democracy. His response to the churning cauldron of the 1930s was to throw his lot in with the brownshirts, even going so far - if Lucas is to be believed -as to daub fascist slogans on London walls.

His reticence on the subject is understandable but there is no evidence that he changed his views (or, to be fair, that he didn't). In the liner notes for his recording of Valkyrie, he blethers on semi-coherently about pollution and man 'destroying the animals of nature' but that's about as political as he got in print (and it reads somewhat disingenuously to my eyes).


And - as a parting shot - isn't it a bit silly to describe someone as 'the best-ever Wagner conductor'? 'Best-ever' surely belongs to the discourse of teenagers bragging about their favourite 'pop' stars. There is no 'best-ever' Wagner conductor: only several excellent ones, with their own virtues and vices.

[Beef Oven!]

OK.

Have found something else as a treat for you all - will start a new thread in a moment (if I may).

It is slightly related to this discussion, as it has some Wagner conducted by Goodall - the only live video of him in an actual performance I believe: the Wahn monologue from the ENO production of 1968, but performed as part of the ENO Gala for Lord Harewood in 1985.

A-M-A-Z-I-N-G FIND!!!!!

[Barbirollians]

What on earth leads you to think I was 'excusing' it?

The point you (seem determined to) miss is that in any totalitarian political system, there will always be people willing to co-operate - whether because they are ambitious, frightened, not bothered, or have no moral compass. It is, of course, possible to have all these traits in combination. Of the 'usual suspects' always trotted out when Nazi collusion is mentioned, I can think of one (Schwarzkopf) who was obviously ambitious and her eye on the main chance, another (Karajan) who grasped at a possibility of being the New Dawn's golden boy, a third (Furtwangler), who was no kind of anti-semite but was worried about losing his status and numerous others (Bohm being a good example, Orff a less ambiguous one) whose actions and possible motivations have been blurred by time. What all these people had in common was that they lived under a fascist regime that had power of life or death over them. The British have no equivalent of that in their recent experience (though, post-Brexit, who knows what lies in store?), so are hardly in a position to pontificate.

But Goodall lived in a democracy. His response to the churning cauldron of the 1930s was to throw his lot in with the brownshirts, even going so far - if Lucas is to be believed -as to daub fascist slogans on London walls.

His reticence on the subject is understandable but there is no evidence that he changed his views (or, to be fair, that he didn't). In the liner notes for his recording of Valkyrie, he blethers on semi-coherently about pollution and man 'destroying the animals of nature' but that's about as political as he got in print (and it reads somewhat disingenuously to my eyes).


And - as a parting shot - isn't it a bit silly to describe someone as 'the best-ever Wagner conductor'? 'Best-ever' surely belongs to the discourse of teenagers bragging about their favourite 'pop' stars. There is no 'best-ever' Wagner conductor: only several excellent ones, with their own virtues and vices.

Clemens Krauss actively engaged in assisting those smuggling Jews and political refugees out of Germany in the late 1930s to me that rather makes up for him taking jobs offered to him that Jewish conductors had been forced to vacate . Suggesting this was worse than being a Fascist and Holocaust denier baffles me .

[Beef Oven!]

Clemens Krauss actively engaged in assisting those smuggling Jews and political refugees out of Germany in the late 1930s to me that rather makes up for him taking jobs offered to him that Jewish conductors had been forced to vacate . Suggesting this was worse than being a Fascist and Holocaust denier baffles me .

"Rather makes up for ...... " ??????


....... actually colluding with the Nazis? Actively nullifying Kleiber's protest and attempts to deprive the Nazi regime of leadership of state institutions?

During the 1930s? In the third Reich? Compared to Goodall joining the BUF and holding odious political views? If you can't reconcile that one, I'd say baffled is a euphemism!!!

Do you actually realise what you're saying?

At least you finally accept that Krauss did something (that you think he made up for).

ff has kindly provided a new thread to talk about "obnoxious artists like Goodall et al" - but the posts have got to make sense, surely?

[Conchis]

I've now had the opportunity to read John Lucas' Goodall biog, 'Reggie'.

It is clear from the book, despite Lucas' evident affection for his subject, that Goodall was a fascist of a particularly nasty and obnoxious kind and no suggestion is made that he ever changed his views. Lucas records a car journey through Earls Court and Goodall's evident distate for the muliticultualism on abundant display.

'People should stay in their own countries', Goodall is reported as snarling. 'And that includes British people!'


He was able to reconcile his fascism with some vaguely Green-ish politics and a love of animals: but Hitler pulled that trick, too.


I'm currently listening to the ROH Parsifal recording from April 1971 - and, my God, it's dull. The orchestra sounds limp and listless. Appaently, if Goodall was going through a personal depression he would 'idenitfy' too strongly with Amfortas' Klage and, as a resutl, the stucture of the second half of Act 1 would fall apart. Here's hoping he was feeling happy when he conducted this performance!

[Once Was 4]

In the arts, as in politics or any other profession, there will always be ambitious people who are not unduly troubled by ethics. That's always been the case and always will be.

As a student brass (if you call the horn a brass instrument!) player in the 60s I listened often to a recording of the Haydn Trumpet Concerto with Helmut Wobisch as soloist. It appears that he was not only a Nazi sympathizer but actually a member of the Gestapo and directly responsible for the fates of some of his Vienna Philharmonic colleagues. He was still there for the Solti/Decca/Culshaw 'Ring' recording - so...................................??

And: the Berlin Philharmonic was the Reichsorcester - but only 5 members were Nazi party members and all five (including a horn player called Handke) were sacked at the end of the war (Handke was promptly hired by Ferenc Fricsay for the RIAS Berlin orchestra). As the Russians invaded they were offered transport to safety (having been excused all military duties although some joined the Nazi equivalent of the home guard and a couple were killed) but only one, the leader, took advantage of this.

Have a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxVtx3PtWPw

What was going through their minds as they went to work on the tram that morning?

[Barbirollians]

I've now had the opportunity to read John Lucas' Goodall biog, 'Reggie'.

It is clear from the book, despite Lucas' evident affection for his subject, that Goodall was a fascist of a particularly nasty and obnoxious kind and no suggestion is made that he ever changed his views. Lucas records a car journey through Earls Court and Goodall's evident distate for the muliticultualism on abundant display.

'People should stay in their own countries', Goodall is reported as snarling. 'And that includes British people!'


He was able to reconcile his fascism with some vaguely Green-ish politics and a love of animals: but Hitler pulled that trick, too.


I'm currently listening to the ROH Parsifal recording from April 1971 - and, my God, it's dull. The orchestra sounds limp and listless. Appaently, if Goodall was going through a personal depression he would 'idenitfy' too strongly with Amfortas' Klage and, as a resutl, the stucture of the second half of Act 1 would fall apart. Here's hoping he was feeling happy when he conducted this performance!

I see a reviewer on Amazon described his WNO Parsifal as Knappertsbusch will low blood pressure - is that fair ?

[Beef Oven!]

I've now had the opportunity to read John Lucas' Goodall biog, 'Reggie'.

It is clear from the book, despite Lucas' evident affection for his subject, that Goodall was a fascist of a particularly nasty and obnoxious kind and no suggestion is made that he ever changed his views. Lucas records a car journey through Earls Court and Goodall's evident distate for the muliticultualism on abundant display.

I've read that book and there is nothing to suggest that Reggie was a fascist of a particularly nasty and obnoxious kind. It's hard to understand why you are talking such crap on this forum about Sir Reggie.

'People should stay in their own countries', Goodall is reported as snarling. 'And that includes British people!'

Hardly the most insanitary view to hold. Wouldn't qualify anyone as 'a particularly nasty and obnoxious kind of fascist'.

Snarled? He probably just said it!

He was able to reconcile his fascism with some vaguely Green-ish politics and a love of animals: but Hitler pulled that trick, too.

Oh dear. <groan>

I'm currently listening to the ROH Parsifal recording from April 1971 - and, my God, it's dull. The orchestra sounds limp and listless. Appaently, if Goodall was going through a personal depression he would 'idenitfy' too strongly with Amfortas' Klage and, as a resutl, the stucture of the second half of Act 1 would fall apart. Here's hoping he was feeling happy when he conducted this performance!

If you don't like Reggie's Parsifal, don't listen to it - simples.

There's something nasty and vindictive in your posts about Reggie. Your posts on this subject say more about you than they do about Reggie. Why must you spew bile about this amazing musician?

And do stop presenting your personal opinions as if they are facts.