Reggie rehearsing Tristan in 1981

[Beef Oven!]

I'm aware that Wagner wanted his works performed and wasn't bothered about them being performed in other languages. The point was, he wanted his music to be heard and he needed money (he was personally impecunious throughout his life, though rich associates were always on hand to bail him out):he hired himself out as a guest conductor for the same reason. And the point that creators themselves are not always the best people to understand their own creation applies to Wagner as much as it does to anyone else.

I think it's instructive an point to say that too much is read into what was in the heads of Bruckner, Wagner et al. It's all logical, but that's all. How you can know whether Richard Wagner was 'bothered' about this or that is a grand assertion on your part and you have quite some neck.

Regarding the merit of Goodall, it's all purely subjective. Some people believe that he was the greatest Wagner conductor ever. When I first heard his Ring something happened to me that was even bigger than my hitherto own personal ''Wagner Moment", which was hearing Furtwangler's Tristan. What I can't stick, like you yawn at the Karajan Nazi party comments, is the people who crawl out of the woodwork every time, to tell us all that Goodall held some odious views. We know that. It's banal. If you're worried about anti-semitism and fascism, just look out the window.

[Prommer]

I'm sure Prommer had no intention start a discussion about politics when started this thread.

He did not.

[Beef Oven!]

He did not.

Please accept my apology for my part in this.

[Prommer]

No need to apologise - all part of the warp and weft.

[Barbirollians]

I watched the film several times BEFORE John Lucas published his Goodall biography (in which Goodall's politics were discussed extensively, although Lucas's approach was sympathetic) and I was mystified as to how Goodall came to be in what Burton laughably called 'a nasty part of the army.' That a man in his forties, who was too old to fight, could be bundled off like that surely begged a few questions as to what he'd done (or not done) to warrant such treatment.

I yawn heavily when people bring up Karajan's joining the Nazi Party in order to go skiing but with Goodall, the fascism seems to be something people positively want to ignore, probably because he happened to be English rather than Austro-German.

I agree Conchis - whenever his fascism - remembering he joined the British Union of Fascists eight days after the invasion of Poland and he insisted that Belsen concentration camp was a filmset is mentioned this leads to verbal attacks on anyone with the temerity to mention it .

I doubt that the fact that he was English is the reason that it tends to be ignored or at best glossed over . The combination of Wagner conducted by a fascist is unpleasant and in order to enjoy his conducting of the Ring for example one has to put it out of one's mind entirely .Bringing it up therefore makes some Goodall fans angry and uncomfortable.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well, yes - but you have to put a lot of things "out of one's mind entirely" when listening to Wagner. For me, this is usually achieved with the first note.

I attended one of the re-runs of the Goodall T&I in c1984 - my only "Live" experience of the opera to date. I thought that it demonstrated my general reaction to Goodall in that it was very good in the slower Music, but missed the dramatic impetus, particularly in Act One. His was an attitude to the Music that I can (sort-of) respect (especially after watching the clip provided in the OP, for which my thanks), without ever being able to get thrilled by it - but this is a response to the Music-making, and nothing to do with what I know of the man's obnoxious politics.

[Beef Oven!]

I agree Conchis - whenever his fascism - remembering he joined the British Union of Fascists eight days after the invasion of Poland and he insisted that Belsen concentration camp was a filmset is mentioned this leads to verbal attacks on anyone with the temerity to mention it .

I doubt that the fact that he was English is the reason that it tends to be ignored or at best glossed over . The combination of Wagner conducted by a fascist is unpleasant and in order to enjoy his conducting of the Ring for example one has to put it out of one's mind entirely .Bringing it up therefore makes some Goodall fans angry and uncomfortable.

Makes me angry, but not the slightest bit uncomfortable.

"Bringing it up" just makes me angry with the attention-seeking virtue-signallers who get off on so doing, but are too chicken to speak up against the real evil that's going on. Make no bones about it, they won't speak up against FGM, the usurpation of British law with local informal religious courts etc, because they're too damned scared to. Reggie et al are easy targets for cowards.

Plus as I've already said (when it's not making me angry) it's banal, which I guess also says something about the people who do it.


"The combination of Wagner conducted by a Fascist is unpleasant"? If you're bothered by "Fascists", should't it a apply to conducting Bruckner, Beethoven, Strauss or anything else?

[Barbirollians]

Well, yes - but you have to put a lot of things "out of one's mind entirely" when listening to Wagner. For me, this is usually achieved with the first note.

I attended one of the re-runs of the Goodall T&I in c1984 - my only "Live" experience of the opera to date. I thought that it demonstrated my general reaction to Goodall in that it was very good in the slower Music, but missed the dramatic impetus, particularly in Act One. His was an attitude to the Music that I can (sort-of) respect (especially after watching the clip provided in the OP, for which my thanks), without ever being able to get thrilled by it - but this is a response to the Music-making, and nothing to do with what I know of the man's obnoxious politics.

I suspect it must be hard to reconcile if you are swept away by his Wagner . My experience of his conducting was on film and record and I always found it turgid long before I was aware of his fascism and that he was a Holocaust denier .

[Beef Oven!]

I suspect it must be hard to reconcile if you are swept away by his Wagner . My experience of his conducting was on film and record and I always found it turgid long before I was aware of his fascism and that he was a Holocaust denier .

We know all about his odious political views. We don't need reminding every single time something is mentioned about him. It doesn't matter about your views and that you think Reggie's conducting is turgid - I might think your musical tastes are Progeroid-like, what difference does that make?

[Richard Barrett]

you have to put a lot of things "out of one's mind entirely" when listening to Wagner

I would put it less in terms of putting them out of one's mind and more in terms of meeting the contradictions head on, every time, and keeping them in mind, and if that makes the experience uncomfortable then something has been gained rather than lost. As for Reginald Goodall, his Wagner in English idea disagreed with me before I knew he was a fascist and a Holocaust denier. Wagner was an anti-semite but in fact he was neither of those things, and there aren't any grounds for imagining he "would have been" if he were born a hundred years later. The St John Passion is anti-semitic too. Bringing such things up might or might not be a case of virtue-signalling, who can tell? but maybe it is a sign that such attitudes are no longer held to be acceptable, which is something.

[Barbirollians]

I would put it less in terms of putting them out of one's mind and more in terms of meeting the contradictions head on, every time, and keeping them in mind, and if that makes the experience uncomfortable then something has been gained rather than lost. As for Reginald Goodall, his Wagner in English idea disagreed with me before I knew he was a fascist and a Holocaust denier. Wagner was an anti-semite but in fact he was neither of those things, and there aren't any grounds for imagining he "would have been" if he were born a hundred years later. The St John Passion is anti-semitic too. Bringing such things up might or might not be a case of virtue-signalling, who can tell? but maybe it is a sign that such attitudes are no longer held to be acceptable, which is something.

The biggest problem I have with opera in translation is sometimes also the one I have with English operas - all too often it exposes how bad the singer's diction is ! I also much prefer tot hear opera in the original language for which the music was written .

[Richard Barrett]

all too often it exposes how bad the singer's diction is !

To be fair, though, it's more difficult to sing with convincing diction in English than it is in Italian or German where the vowels are much more clearly distinguishable and open-sounding, especially the diphthongs.

[french frank]

Why don't we have a rule in this forum that outlaws political posts?

We do 'outlaw' party politics and campaigning. I agree with those who think (if anyone else does!) that it's a pity that when certain names are mentioned we have to go through the same ritual arguments, tending to veer on the totally irrelevant. I think if we stick to the music itself, it allows people to discuss the political angles, composer vis-à-vis the political context which influenced individual works.

[Richard Barrett]

the music itself

... except there'd have to be some agreement as to what "the music itself" actually is!

[french frank]

... except there'd have to be some agreement as to what "the music itself" actually is!

I would be inclined to take a broad view …