Reggie rehearsing Tristan in 1981

[MrGongGong]

...... and then I understood the reason for his reputation.

That can be understood in more than one way

[Conchis]

The Quest...programme is good but its analysis is dishonest: Goodall was not an overlooked genius but an English fascist sympathiser whose (to be kind) naive politics got him interned during WW2; post-war, there was an understandable stigma against him, particularly at the Solti-led Covent Garden.

I admire a lot of Goodall's music-making but Humphrey Burton's soft-soap interview with him is misleading.

[Beef Oven!]

The Quest...programme is good but its analysis is dishonest: Goodall was not an overlooked genius but an English fascist sympathiser whose (to be kind) naive politics got him interned during WW2; post-war, there was an understandable stigma against him, particularly at the Solti-led Covent Garden.

I admire a lot of Goodall's music-making but Humphrey Burton's soft-soap interview with him is misleading.

There is nothing dishonest about the 'analysis', be sensible!

You imply internment as if it is some legitimate moral measurement of his behavior, when it's clear that internment is an injustice that we thankfully no longer use in this day and age.

'Understandable stigma'? I hope you don't mean to condone it. Stigmatising is a nasty human weakness concerning stereotyping people.

Btw, the interview wasn't 'soft-soaping', it was reverent.

We got to 5 posts before the virtue-signalling/Godwin's Law began.

Why don't we have a rule in this forum that outlaws political posts? I'm sure Prommer had no intention start a discussion about politics when started this thread. Can't we hive off the political remarks to some basement and be left with just the posts about music?

[Conchis]

There is nothing dishonest about the 'analysis', be sensible!

You imply internment as if it is some legitimate moral measurement of his behavior, when it's clear that internment is an injustice that we thankfully no longer use in this day and age.

'Understandable stigma'? I hope you don't mean to condone it. Stigmatising is a nasty human weakness concerning stereotyping people.

Btw, the interview wasn't 'soft-soaping', it was reverent.

We got to 5 posts before the virtue-signalling/Godwin's Law began.

Why don't we have a rule in this forum that outlaws political posts? I'm sure Prommer had no intention start a discussion about politics when started this thread. Can't we hive off the political remarks to some basement and be left with just the posts about music?

I watched the film several times BEFORE John Lucas published his Goodall biography (in which Goodall's politics were discussed extensively, although Lucas's approach was sympathetic) and I was mystified as to how Goodall came to be in what Burton laughably called 'a nasty part of the army.' That a man in his forties, who was too old to fight, could be bundled off like that surely begged a few questions as to what he'd done (or not done) to warrant such treatment.

I yawn heavily when people bring up Karajan's joining the Nazi Party in order to go skiing but with Goodall, the fascism seems to be something people positively want to ignore, probably because he happened to be English rather than Austro-German.

[Beef Oven!]

I watched the film several times BEFORE John Lucas published his Goodall biography (in which Goodall's politics were discussed extensively, although Lucas's approach was sympathetic) and I was mystified as to how Goodall came to be in what Burton laughably called 'a nasty part of the army.' That a man in his forties, who was too old to fight, could be bundled off like that surely begged a few questions as to what he'd done (or not done) to warrant such treatment.

I yawn heavily when people bring up Karajan's joining the Nazi Party in order to go skiing but with Goodall, the fascism seems to be something people positively want to ignore, probably because he happened to be English rather than Austro-German.

Well why don't you go join some other politics forum as well and tell them about your views? I understand there are plenty of politics forums out there. Perhaps This particular forum can stick to music and things of interest, other than politics.

And there is a far bigger threat to our way of life at the moment than the Third Reich ever was and it's being carried out by British people (et al), not Austro-Germans. Is it cowardice or masochism that makes us high-light the short-comings of western men, or perhaps a combination of the two? Either way, let's stick to music. Lest we'll make our fellow forum members "yawn heavily" at our toing and froing.

[Conchis]

Well why don't you go join some other politics forum as well and tell them about your views? I understand there are plenty of politics forums out there. Perhaps This particular forum can stick to music and things of interest, other than politics.

And there is a far bigger threat to our way of life at the moment than the Third Reich ever was and it's being carried out by British people (et al), not Austro-Germans. Is it cowardice or masochism that makes us high-light the short-comings of western men, or perhaps a combination of the two? Either way, let's stick to music. Lest we'll make our fellow forum members "yawn heavily" at our toing and froing.

At least the second half of your post lacks coherence.

[MrGongGong]

Aaaah yes
Music has nothing to do with politics ?
righto

Shostakovitch , nope , no politics there
Weil ... nope....nothing there
Cardew.... not a hint of anything
Henze.... nah ...nothing there




There's even a journal for you

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/mp/

[Conchis]

Actually, watching that clip and listening to the associated clips on youtube has just confirmed my scepticism about Goodall as a Wagnerian. The endless lingering over detail, his habit of analysing every note of every chord into the ground and what might be brutally called his 'fussiness' are not to my mature tastes. There might be one day in a year when I feel like listening to a Goodall performance but I doubt if there'd be more. These days, my tastes run more to the Italian style of Wagner interpretation (which isn't the exclusive domain of Italian-born conductors).

All told, I don't think Goodall's approach to Wagner has worn especially well and now sounds extremely old-fashioned. Which is ironic (in a way), as Reggie's politics are back in fashion and people he'd happily play free concerts for are shaping the destiny of what will soon be known as 'the former UK' (not that said people would take up the option of listening!)

[Beef Oven!]

Actually, watching that clip and listening to the associated clips on youtube has just confirmed my scepticism about Goodall as a Wagnerian.

Yeah, what did Alberto Remedios know compared to you and your wise opinion?

[Beef Oven!]

"Old-fashioned" ???

Wot, like flairs and high-waisters?

Or skinny ties?

[Conchis]

I've got every admiration for Alberto Remedios; sadly, I don't listen to him that much, though....

....for the other reason I don't get on with Goodall: he had a tendency to conduct Wagner in 'English translation'. Like many composers whose libretti aren't in English, Wagner doesn't benefit from being re-created in a foreign language. Andrew Porter's once-esteemed translation of the Ring (containing such endearing renderings as 'pernicious nixies!') has worn about as well as Goodall's conducting (i.e. not very).

It's a shame Remedios couldn't master German: that was supposedly the barrier to the international career he could have had (but, argue some, didn't want).

[Beef Oven!]

....for the other reason I don't get on with Goodall: he had a tendency to conduct Wagner in 'English translation'. Like many composers whose libretti aren't in English, Wagner doesn't benefit from being re-created in a foreign language.

Well funny enough, Wagner was very happy about this and even suggested that his operas be performed in English. So not only is it Alberto Remedios, you also trump Richard Wagner himself, in how this music should go!

[Richard Barrett]

Like many composers whose libretti aren't in English, Wagner doesn't benefit from being re-created in a foreign language.

Composers think very carefully about the relationship between pitches and vowels, phrasing and articulation when setting words to music, and I think a great deal is lost when opera is performed in translation. I understand that not everyone agrees with this, but the words and the language are part of the sound and I just don't see the point in singing translated opera libretti. Wagner might have sanctioned the practice, but in his day opera libretti were translated as a matter of course when the works were performed in foreign countries and demanding that they be performed in the original would probably have been a guarantee of no performance.

[Beef Oven!]

Composers think very carefully about the relationship between pitches and vowels, phrasing and articulation when setting words to music, and I think a great deal is lost when opera is performed in translation. I understand that not everyone agrees with this, but the words and the language are part of the sound and I just don't see the point in singing translated opera libretti. Wagner might have sanctioned the practice, but in his day opera libretti were translated as a matter of course when the works were performed in foreign countries and demanding that they be performed in the original would probably have been a guarantee of no performance.

You've responded to an opinion that has been presented as a fact, and I can't help thinking that it detracts from your points.

[Conchis]

Well funny enough, Wagner was very happy about this and even suggested that his operas be performed in English. So not only is it Alberto Remedios, you also trump Richard Wagner himself, in how this music should go!

Most readers of German agree that Wagner was one of the worst (if not THE worst) writers of prose and poetry in his own language: if you're not fluent in German, you probably gain by not understanding it! But the 'stabreim' is, to many, an essential part of the Wagner experience and one that is immediately lost when the libretti are shrunken into a foreign language. The result is, you're hearing something that is not in line with the composer's intentions.

I'm aware that Wagner wanted his works performed and wasn't bothered about them being performed in other languages. The point was, he wanted his music to be heard and he needed money (he was personally impecunious throughout his life, though rich associates were always on hand to bail him out):he hired himself out as a guest conductor for the same reason. And the point that creators themselves are not always the best people to understand their own creation applies to Wagner as much as it does to anyone else.