Reggie rehearsing Tristan in 1981

[Conchis]

I've read that book and there is nothing to suggest that Reggie was a fascist of a particularly nasty and obnoxious kind. It's hard to understand why you are talking such crap on this forum about Sir Reggie.



Hardly the most insanitary view to hold. Wouldn't qualify anyone as 'a particularly nasty and obnoxious kind of fascist'.

Snarled? He probably just said it!




Oh dear. <groan>




If you don't like Reggie's Parsifal, don't listen to it - simples.

There's something nasty and vindictive in your posts about Reggie. Your posts on this subject say more about you than they do about Reggie. Why must you spew bile about this amazing musician?

And do stop presenting your personal opinions as if they are facts.

Most of the time I'm happily able to ignore you, but sometimes a man's just got to engage with the problem; so in this instance, I've followed the trail of effluence you've left over this thread.

I wanted to complete my contribution to the thread by reporting on my reading of the book, the purchase of which I alluded to back in June. Had Lucas made a convincing case for Goodall as a misunderstood man, or one who had made an honest but mistaken choice in the turbulent atmosphere of the 1930s, I would have reported my revised opinion. However, Lucas makes no attempt at such a case. He presents Goodall's (and why do you call him 'Reggie', I wonder? Were you his personal friend?) politics for what they were - and they were fascist. There is nothing to suggest he didn't die an unrepentent fascist.

These are not my personal opinions: they represent the reportage of someone who knew him and (presumably) liked him.

I think it's a bit rich (again) of you to call me out for being 'nasty' and 'vindictive' when you yourself have considerable form in this area.

[Conchis]

I see a reviewer on Amazon described his WNO Parsifal as Knappertsbusch will low blood pressure - is that fair ?

Goodall was a Knappertsbusch acolyte but he never achieved (imo) Kna's sense of flow and forward momentum.

I listened to the Kna 1964 Parsifal on Phillips several times over the summer and was reminded what a superbly natural performance it is. The score comes across unmediated, as if Kna was relaying the intentions of the composer. Goodall, by conrast, seems effortful and hesitant. He is not helped by the Covent Garden Orchestra, which sounds as if it was in one of its rudderless periods (it was recorded around the time of the Solti/Davis handover).

[french frank]

I bought and read the Lucas book too after the last 'spat' on here, but wasn't going to comment as I thought it would simply kindle the old animosities. As it appears to be doing.

I had no feelings about Goodall before reading the book, not keen on Wagner, don't have any Goodall recordings, no need to defend him. I just ordered the book (1p) to make up my own mind about the controversy. I thought Lucas gave a good psychological portrait: the two Goodall characteristics that particularly struck me were his friends' view of his astonishing capacity for self-deception and his credulousness. Tell him what he wanted to hear and he believed it, tell him what he didn't want to hear and he dismissed it. There's been quite a bit of this in this country lately, hasn't there? A very human flaw, I'm afraid.

Goodall's key motivating drive seemed to be his unlimited admiration for the Germans and their music. Nothing was going to shift that. That isn't the same as the underlying belief being one of fascism. Does that 'excuse' him? Partially, I think. His alarm system didn't function well, that's true. But I suspect the savagery of his detractors for the Nazi regime and its atrocities existed before they read the book, and they picked out what they wanted to pick out. Just what Goodall himself did, in reverse.

I think he had a very odd psyche: his tantrums, his mania for tiny details and for getting each one exactly as he wanted. But my verdict was that he was a man whose own world was something apart from what was going on in the real world. I didn't find him an attractive person, though - even if he did have his friends.

[Barbirollians]

I bought and read the Lucas book too after the last 'spat' on here, but wasn't going to comment as I thought it would simply kindle the old animosities. As it appears to be doing.

I had no feelings about Goodall before reading the book, not keen on Wagner, don't have any Goodall recordings, no need to defend him. I just ordered the book (1p) to make up my own mind about the controversy. I thought Lucas gave a good psychological portrait: the two Goodall characteristics that particularly struck me were his friends' view of his astonishing capacity for self-deception and his credulousness. Tell him what he wanted to hear and he believed it, tell him what he didn't want to hear and he dismissed it. There's been quite a bit of this in this country lately, hasn't there? A very human flaw, I'm afraid.

Goodall's key motivating drive seemed to be his unlimited admiration for the Germans and their music. Nothing was going to shift that. That isn't the same as the underlying belief being one of fascism. Does that 'excuse' him? Partially, I think. His alarm system didn't function well, that's true. But I suspect the savagery of his detractors for the Nazi regime and its atrocities existed before they read the book, and they picked out what they wanted to pick out. Just what Goodall himself did, in reverse.

I think he had a very odd psyche: his tantrums, his mania for tiny details and for getting each one exactly as he wanted. But my verdict was that he was a man whose own world was something apart from what was going on in the real world. I didn't find him an attractive person, though - even if he did have his friends.

The problem with that rather benevolent view is twofold 1 he joined the British Union of Fascists after the war broke out and Kristalnacht 2 he was recorded to be a holocaust denier after the war .

I find it remarkable that his deeply racist view that people should stay in their own countries is considered acceptable on here .

[french frank]

I find it remarkable that his deeply racist view that people should stay in their own countries is considered acceptable on here .

I would find that worse than remarkable: I'd find it despicable. But we (I) need to separate the different strands of a human being's psychology and existence. And (if it comes to that) read what people say, not rephrase one's own reaction to what has been said. I was merely trying to understand the man, not act as an apologist for all his actions.

[gradus]

As a student brass (if you call the horn a brass instrument!) player in the 60s I listened often to a recording of the Haydn Trumpet Concerto with Helmut Wobisch as soloist. It appears that he was not only a Nazi sympathizer but actually a member of the Gestapo and directly responsible for the fates of some of his Vienna Philharmonic colleagues. He was still there for the Solti/Decca/Culshaw 'Ring' recording - so...................................??

And: the Berlin Philharmonic was the Reichsorcester - but only 5 members were Nazi party members and all five (including a horn player called Handke) were sacked at the end of the war (Handke was promptly hired by Ferenc Fricsay for the RIAS Berlin orchestra). As the Russians invaded they were offered transport to safety (having been excused all military duties although some joined the Nazi equivalent of the home guard and a couple were killed) but only one, the leader, took advantage of this.

Have a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxVtx3PtWPw

What was going through their minds as they went to work on the tram that morning?

What indeed.
Quite apart from the political issues any reminder of the great Menuhin is welcome.
You mention Handke who was presumably no longer with the BPO but there is a moustachioed horn player who could I suppose be emulating Charlie Chaplin, could it be Herr H.?

[Richard Barrett]

These arguments about dead musicians with poisonous views get nobody anywhere. (I'm never going to listen to Goodall's Wagner recordings because I insist on Wagner being performed in German; opinions may differ but personally I don't want to hear it any other way.) Plenty of people involved with German musical life in the 1930s are more or less compromised by their accommodation to or outright support of the Third Reich. But they're all dead now, and avoiding their work on political grounds doesn't really achieve anything. The living are a different matter.

[Barbirollians]

What indeed.
Quite apart from the political issues any reminder of the great Menuhin is welcome.
You mention Handke who was presumably no longer with the BPO but there is a moustachioed horn player who could I suppose be emulating Charlie Chaplin, could it be Herr H.?

Excellent and showing that the young Celi didn't necessarily want to slow anything down ! Menuhin remains for me the greatest exponent of this concerto .

[Barbirollians]

These arguments about dead musicians with poisonous views get nobody anywhere. (I'm never going to listen to Goodall's Wagner recordings because I insist on Wagner being performed in German; opinions may differ but personally I don't want to hear it any other way.) Plenty of people involved with German musical life in the 1930s are more or less compromised by their accommodation to or outright support of the Third Reich. But they're all dead now, and avoiding their work on political grounds doesn't really achieve anything. The living are a different matter.

Aren't his ROH recording and his WNO Parsifal sung in German ?

[Barbirollians]

FF I was referring to Beef Oven's remark as considering this to be reasonable .

[Richard Barrett]

Aren't his ROH recording and his WNO Parsifal sung in German ?

Are they? I haven't taken much of an interest in his performances so I'm sure you're right. Maybe I'll give them a try. I've never really appreciated Parsifal though.

[Conchis]

I would find that worse than remarkable: I'd find it despicable. But we (I) need to separate the different strands of a human being's psychology and existence. And (if it comes to that) read what people say, not rephrase one's own reaction to what has been said. I was merely trying to understand the man, not act as an apologist for all his actions.

Lucas was published in 1992: significantly, a time when borders were coming down in Europe and across the world. Its portrayal of Goodall as a cantankerous Alf Garnett figure, albeit one with a better vocabulary and an aesthetic sense, might have seemed somewhat less horriying then - wiht Nazism/fascism conclusively defeated - than it does today . Now that the hard right is not only resurgent but has the ear of the leaders of notionally democratic countries, we can't be so sanguine.

His attitude to Germany was far from uncommon among artists of his generation but most of them knew when to draw the line. That Goodall continued to be a Holocaust denier is disgraceul, though: it really makes him no better than the likes of David Irving.

[Conchis]

Aren't his ROH recording and his WNO Parsifal sung in German ?

They are, as is his WNO Tristan (which I've not heard).

[Beef Oven!]

I find it remarkable that his deeply racist view that people should stay in their own countries is considered acceptable on here .

I don't see where this is considered acceptable on here.

And why is it ''deeply racist'', anyway? Doesn't leave much headroom for the really ghastly stuff, does it?

Are you not getting a bit hysterical about this?

[ahinton]

Lucas was published in 1992: significantly, a time when borders were coming down in Europe and across the world. Its portrayal of Goodall as a cantankerous Alf Garnett figure, albeit one with a better vocabulary and an aesthetic sense, might have seemed somewhat less horriying then - wiht Nazism/fascism conclusively defeated - than it does today . Now that the hard right is not only resurgent but has the ear of the leaders of notionally democratic countries, we can't be so sanguine.

His attitude to Germany was far from uncommon among artists of his generation but most of them knew when to draw the line. That Goodall continued to be a Holocaust denier is disgraceul, though: it really makes him no better than the likes of David Irving.

Whilst I can broadly concur with what you say, is that - or can it reasonably be regarded as - a valid reason for boycotting or otherwise disparaging the recordings of a conductor who's been dead for not far short of 30 years? One might as well frown on productions of the composer with whose work he was most closely associated, for similar reasons - and, while we're at it, should we also question why so many of the works of Richard Strauss are so widely performed, even though similar kinds of accusation against him appear to have considerably less foundation? Richard Barrett is correct about this (and I, too, much prefer Wagner sung in German because he conceived his musikdramas in German).