Reggie rehearsing Tristan in 1981

[Beef Oven!]

In the arts, as in politics or any other profession, there will always be ambitious people who are not unduly troubled by ethics. That's always been the case and always will be.

Could you tell me a bit about why you have said this? I'm not sure what the point is. Am I missing something?

[teamsaint]

Could you tell me a bit about why you have said this? I'm not sure what the point is. Am I missing something?

I wondered that too.

[Barbirollians]

In the arts, as in politics or any other profession, there will always be ambitious people who are not unduly troubled by ethics. That's always been the case and always will be.

There is no doubt that Clemens Krauss had an eye for the main chance - he was not a fascist or a Holocaust denier .

Miss Cook's book recounts how he and his wife provided them with cover for their trips to Germany when under the cover that they were going to see Krauss and Ursula they were smuggling Jewish refugees out of Germany .

[Beef Oven!]

There is no doubt that Clemens Krauss had an eye for the main chance - he was not a fascist or a Holocaust denier .

Miss Cook's book recounts how he and his wife provided them with cover for their trips to Germany when under the cover that they were going to see Krauss and Ursula they were smuggling Jewish refugees out of Germany .

An eye for the main chance? How lightly you dismiss this monstrous behaviour.

Can you not understand how this type of behaviour assisted Nazi hegemony over all German life? Do you not get why Kleiber and other non-jewish people resigned from key positions? (only for people like Kleiber to come along and undermine and assist, in many cases)

But it does not mean that we shouldn't enjoy his or Goodall's (or all the others) music making. We cannot excuse behaviour just because we happen to like one artist more than another. I like them all and I have a number of Krauss's recordings which I cherish. We just have to be consistent about it.

Although I've not read it, I'll take your word that the Ida cook book sets out mitigation for Krauss's behaviour, but don't forget that that is what it is - mitigation. What happened previously are indisputable facts.

And do you understand that I do not deny, justify or defend Goodall's views?

[Beef Oven!]

Because picking our artists (creators and performers) is such a hugely complex task I would certainly favour newbies listening to WG's Wagner without prejudice and deciding if it (he) speaks to them. If it doesn't, end of story but please try someone else, perhaps not quite so slow If it does, there may be a a decision to be made about whether political opinions outweigh artistic insight. But if this is a stumbling block, maybe you shouldn't be listening to Wagner anyway??

When the best ever Wagner conductor turns out to be an English Fascist-sympathiser, one-time BUF member who conducts it that slowly and has the singing bits in English, it's a tall order to get a politically-correct take on it, and it is indeed good advice to stay away!

But boy, you wouldn't 'alf be missing out!!

[Conchis]

Could you tell me a bit about why you have said this? I'm not sure what the point is. Am I missing something?

Because I feel it is relevant to the point you made about Clemens Krauss.

[Conchis]

When the best ever Wagner conductor turns out to be an English Fascist-sympathiser, one-time BUF member who conducts it that slowly and has the singing bits in English, it's a tall order to get a politically-correct take on it, and it is indeed good advice to stay away!

But boy, you wouldn't 'alf be missing out!!

It is a very (very) personal opinion that Goodall was 'the best-ever Wagner conductor' and one that seems to be shared (largely) by right-wing Wagnerites, such as Michael Tanner.

There is certainly a 'cult of Goodall', although this cult seems to be much less vocal (and less populated) than it was some years ago; but Goodall's qualities as a Wagner conductor are still disputed, particularly outside Britain.

Of course, it can't have helped that he never worked with a first-rate ensemble (unless you discount the NPO Wotans Abschied recording on which he depped for Klemperer - though many - me included - would argue that the NPO was not a first rate ensemble at that time).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Wading in here where angels fear to tread, an alternative take on proceedings is that some posters emerge from the woodwork every time an opportunity arises to flaunt their own particular soapbox topics, (be it politics, gender, HIPP, KD, RW) and the fight begins. The imperfections of conductors is useful for such off-topic diversions, as the people involved (Mengelberg, Karajan, Furtwangler, Goodall, Krause, and others) can be a useful clothes line for such discussions to be manipulated. Then the personal attacks on other posters begin to surface and things rapidly go pear-shaped.

[ahinton]

Wading in here where angels fear to tread, an alternative take on proceedings is that some posters emerge from the woodwork every time an opportunity arises to flaunt their own particular soapbox topics, (be it politics, gender, HIPP, KD, RW) and the fight begins. The imperfections of conductors is useful for such off-topic diversions, as the people involved (Mengelberg, Karajan, Furtwangler, Goodall, Krause, and others) can be a useful clothes line for such discussions to be manipulated. Then the personal attacks on other posters begin to surface and things rapidly go pear-shaped.

So it's not only politics, then?...

[gurnemanz]

I've only just taken notice of this thread and have read it through with great interest. I am a Wagner enthusiast but hardly know any of Goodall's recordings for the reason that I have never had any strong wish to listen to Wagner in English and not because of any political views he might have had, however offputting they may be. (I did make an exception for the ENO Parsifal a few years ago, being prepared to take any rare opportunity to see that particular work live). For me therefore the most relevant comment here is that made about opera in translation much better than I could by Richard Barrett above.

[Richard Barrett]

Wading in here where angels fear to tread, an alternative take on proceedings is that some posters emerge from the woodwork every time an opportunity arises to flaunt their own particular soapbox topics, (be it politics, gender, HIPP, KD, RW) and the fight begins. The imperfections of conductors is useful for such off-topic diversions, as the people involved (Mengelberg, Karajan, Furtwangler, Goodall, Krause, and others) can be a useful clothes line for such discussions to be manipulated. Then the personal attacks on other posters begin to surface and things rapidly go pear-shaped.

Mostly, discussions here actually don't descend to personal attacks. I don't, for example, remember one on HIPP which did so. Maybe you do. But people post on this forum because of their enthusiasm for music (I would use the word "passion" if it hadn't been so debased by advertising!), which can give rise to strong feelings. And this might be particularly the case where discussing musicians of the mid 20th century is concerned, and their relationship to the Third Reich and fascism in general. Which of us hasn't wondered what we would have done under those circumstances? I don't think such conversations should be suppressed. Some might think it's unfair for these issues to be brought up whenever there's mention of Goodall, or any of the other names you mention (presumably you mean Krauss not Krause). But that's history. Better to argue about it than normalise it, I would say.

[french frank]

Mostly, discussions here actually don't descend to personal attacks. I don't, for example, remember one on HIPP which did so. Maybe you do. But people post on this forum because of their enthusiasm for music (I would use the word "passion" if it hadn't been so debased by advertising!), which can give rise to strong feelings. And this might be particularly the case where discussing musicians of the mid 20th century is concerned, and their relationship to the Third Reich and fascism in general. Which of us hasn't wondered what we would have done under those circumstances? I don't think such conversations should be suppressed. Some might think it's unfair for these issues to be brought up whenever there's mention of Goodall, or any of the other names you mention (presumably you mean Krauss not Krause). But that's history. Better to argue about it than normalise it, I would say.

That's a very balanced view which I agree with - hence no 'nipping in the bud' as was suggested. The problem is when it become impossible to discuss the music when others insist on discussing the man.

The key point is that some people feel that, if they regard certain performers (or composers) as execrable human beings on account of their despicable behaviour, they can’t bear to listen to their music. That’s a personal decision for everyone, but one that they can’t make for everyone else; and there’s a limit to how many times they need to justify their reaction to the same individuals.

If people post here in support of Nazi death camps or the abuse of choirboys, those posts would be removed and the posters would be banned. If they merely give their views on the music or the performance thereof (for or against), others should allow them to do so without, every time, favouring us with their repulsion at the depravity of human behaviour.

PS I think Alpie may have suffered the odd light-hearted barb for his views on HIPP …

[ahinton]

Mostly, discussions here actually don't descend to personal attacks. I don't, for example, remember one on HIPP which did so. Maybe you do. But people post on this forum because of their enthusiasm for music (I would use the word "passion" if it hadn't been so debased by advertising!), which can give rise to strong feelings. And this might be particularly the case where discussing musicians of the mid 20th century is concerned, and their relationship to the Third Reich and fascism in general. Which of us hasn't wondered what we would have done under those circumstances? I don't think such conversations should be suppressed. Some might think it's unfair for these issues to be brought up whenever there's mention of Goodall, or any of the other names you mention (presumably you mean Krauss not Krause). But that's history. Better to argue about it than normalise it, I would say.

Indeed - but occasionally it can be the way in which such conversations develop that risk venturing into this kind of thing, although there's no need for them to do so.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So it's not only politics, then?...

Well, no - but I think I would put it a little more charitably than Alpie's "emerging from the woodwork ... to flaunt their own particular soapbox topics" especially given that with one of the "topics" mentioned - HIPP - two woodwork-emerging soapbox-flaunters are ... Alpie and Me (About which I have nothing more to add at this juncture - other than to point out that my soapbox is better than yours )

It's not surprising (on this Forum in particular) that Music is very personal to us as individuals, and criticisms of composers and performers whom we find bring us greatest enjoyment and satisfaction can feel - from short, informally-written scripts without benefit of the poster's tone of voice - that comments we find hostile to our own opinions can seem personal - and these can lead to generalised "personal" retaliations. (Mea culpa - cf HIPP above.) "Passion" (meaning "suffering", of course) can result in intemperate responses of both enthusiasm and hostility.

There seems to be universal agreement here that Goodall's political beliefs were "obnoxious" so that isn't the cause of any disagreement. The dispute seems to be based on the content of a documentary that I haven't seen - not being much of an admirer of the work of either Goodall or Burton, I have other things that I find more pressing on my time and attention. Not having seen it, I cannot comment on it (a predicament that I wouldn't be surprised to find that many other Forumistas share) - but, if the documentary is a biography of Goodall, or a study of his personality it would be dishonest not to devote some attention to his views and activities in the '30s and '40s. If the documentary is a study of his working methods as a conductor, then it could be argued that those poisonous beliefs do not have a place: that the study of how performers respond to his conducting, how he gets the results that (for better or worse) are unique to him - those are the focus, and biographical details might unbalance and distract from such a focus.

The Newsnight clip in the OP did seem to hedge its bets in referring to the various possible reasons for Goodall's neglect after Peter Grimes whilst not mentioning his political views as a possible contribution to this. Either miss out the biography completely or (not possible, perhaps, in a 10-minute "article") deal with the full(er) story. As I said earlier, the clip also made me more aware - and appreciative - of Goodall's conducting and training abilities, whilst not changing my negative reaction to the results one whit. It was a fascinating clip - and as was suggested in the OP, a reminder of a time when such productions could feature on "mainstream" television - and again I thank Prommer for posting it.

I'm not entirely sure if this fairly sums up the argument (between Conchis and BeefO in particular) - but I hope it will at least point to some aspects where the discussion can move on as amicably as possible.

[Beef Oven!]

Because I feel it is relevant to the point you made about Clemens Krauss.

Yes it related to Krauss's behaviour in rushing in to one of the posts vacated by Jews being persecuted by the Nazis and removed, or by non-Jews resigning in protest - behaviour that assisted the Nazi machine to create hegemony over German life. Yes I got the connection.

But what do you mean by it? What's your point? Without further explanation I take it to mean that his behavior was no more than what lots of people did at the time. Or perhaps it's just human nature. I hope you're not excusing it.

Forgive me for believing, without further explanation from you, that that it's a casual justification for that kind of behaviour.