Most loved, hated etc

[Serial_Apologist]

I love Wagner (from Lohengrin onwards) and Puccini, but can't stand Verdi, any of it (apart from the Requiem).

Then you obviously weren't forced to sing in it at school!

[Richard Barrett]

Forgot to hate Lohengrin but I do.

I've never got into Lohengrin. I like Tannhäuser much more. But Rheingold is where he really starts cooking on the front ring so to speak.

[Beef Oven!]

I've never got into Lohengrin. I like Tannhäuser much more. But Rheingold is where he really starts cooking on the front ring so to speak.

Given that it was the last of the tetralogy to be 'conceived' and he worked the story in reverse order, arguably, he had it on the back-burner.

[ahinton]

Given that it was the last of the tetralogy to be 'conceived' and he worked the story in reverse order, arguably, he had it on the back-burner.

!!!

[vinteuil]

Given that it was the last of the tetralogy to be 'conceived' and he worked the story in reverse order, arguably, he had it on the back-burner.

... hmmm. Yes, he conceived it backwards - but the music was composed forwards -

Rheingold completed 1854
Walkure completed 1856
Siegfried I & II completed 1857
Siegfried III completed 1869
Gotterdammerung completed 1874

[Beef Oven!]

... hmmm. Yes, he conceived it backwards - but the music was composed forwards -

Rheingold completed 1854
Walkure completed 1856
Siegfried I & II completed 1857
Siegfried III completed 1869
Gotterdammerung completed 1874

hmmm?

Why do you think I put conceived in inverted commas?

We all know when Wagner composed the music.

[Richard Barrett]

Given that it was the last of the tetralogy to be 'conceived' and he worked the story in reverse order, arguably, he had it on the back-burner.

Well OK, but it was the first he actually wrote the music of. You could say it had been marinating for a while.

[ahinton]

Well OK, but it was the first he actually wrote the music of. You could say it had been marinating for a while.

Like The Flying Dutchman, you mean?

[vinteuil]

Like The Flying Dutchman, you mean?

.

... I think you mean "Das Liebesver bottarga"

[ahinton]

.

... I think you mean "Das Liebesver bottarga"

!!!

[Dave2002]

SMP - Music Matters - today appears to have been reading this forum, and borrowed/stolen ideas from this thread!

[Richard Tarleton]

... hmmm. Yes, he conceived it backwards - but the music was composed forwards -

(dusting off his Ernest Newman) - Prose Sketch - the Nibelungen Myth as Scheme for a Drama bears the end-date of 4 October 1848. "The ground plan of this is virtually that of the complete as we now know it....." This opens with "Out of the womb of Night and Death there came into being a racedwelling in Nibelheim....One of these Nibelungs, Alberich, possessed himself of the 'pure and noble Rhine-gold.....fashioned a ring...."

So although Siegfried's Death the first poem (later in October 1848), the first Prose Sketches start at the beginning?? - he just had to write a 3-opera backstory for Siegfried's Death - that's if I've got the story straight .

[Giacomo]

Too much discussion and not enough people playing. We already know different people like different things.

Made up example of unhelpful exchange:
A: I don't like Wagner
B: Wagner is the greatest composer ever

Example of possibly useful:
A: I love Sadko, the stage production was one of the best I've seen.
B: I want to see Sadko, where and when did you see it?"
A: ...

It's a game, I'll play.


Opera I hate: Crass productions that do not fit the words and music. Mobile phones during.

Opera I think is overrated: Mozart and Wagner.

Opera I think is underrated: Gemma di Vergy, Donizetti.

Opera I Love: over 100, too may to list, generally the one I'm listening to.

Opera I Cherish: Sadko, I loved the stage performance.

Guilty Pleasure: I feel no guilt! but I'll say Meyerbeer here because it stirs people to criticise!

Opera I want to see revived: Any French grand opera

Opera that I first saw: La Traviata, ROH, Nov 2011.

Opera I saw most recently: Madama Butteryfly, ROH Apr 2017.

Greatest Opening: Boito Mefistofele prologue, Verdi Otello, Massenet Don Quichotte, Rossini Guilleme Tell overture.

Greatest Ending: See notes below.

Greatest Opera of all time: Don Carlos, with an 's' and no cuts.


...some close calls and I reserve the right to change my mind immediately.

I find most opera written after approximately 1912 unlistenable, but I don't hate it because it's easy to avoid. A disappointment that anything "new" is just the unveiling of something existing, fortunately I'm still making discoveries.

The over/under rating is based as much on the ratings than the absolute quality. I could name an obscure one like Pacini, Maria Regina d'Inghilterra, (playing now), but it can't be so underrated as there is an Opera Rara recording of it, albeit out-of-print and expensive used. I suspect the most underrated opera is one I have never heard - and I hope that's "yet to hear". There are many good works beyond the standard repertoire. Perhaps I say the whole standard repertoire is overrated, not that it isn't good. If directors/houses want to challenge audiences they could do some work and present these "lost" works. Some do make the effort, in particular I thank the Chelsea Opera Group and the Opera Rara recording label for expanding my knowledge and happiness.

Operas don't often end "great" when everyone dies, so I'll cheat and say Aida end of Act 2, Don Carlos end of act 3 or for bombastic greatness try Meyerbeer Huguenot end of Act 2. Donizetti Les Martyrs Act3, (I just played it), oh there are too many to list with good endings in the middle. Boris Godunov, starts strong with mass scenes, "Slava, slava, slava", but I can't picture the end scene although after 5 hours I might have fallen asleep. Even Guilleme Tell that ends well/great ends better in the middle. Khovanschina gripped me totally at the end, but not because the end was "great", it tore me apart - basic but brilliant stage craft and Large Hadron Collider of human emotion, modern directors take note.

[vinteuil]

Too much discussion and not enough people playing. We already know different people like different things.

Made up example of unhelpful exchange:
A: I don't like Wagner
B: Wagner is the greatest composer ever

.

.

Opera I think is overrated: Mozart and Wagner.


.

[Giacomo]

.

And your point is? I presume you did not understand me. You have partially requoted me as if to create meaning that isn't there and you have given no explanation. Certainly I have misunderstood you.

In my example of a useless exchange there are two statements that are both valid. Person A can dislike the composer that person B considers the greatest; greatness does not guarantee likeability in everyone. If person A makes such an assertion - and this thread should be full of them - there is no point in response B. It's a useless conversation. Even though I cautioned against useless exchanges in advance I get this.

Can we note over rated does not mean something should not be highly rated. (Neither did I write I dislike Wagner.) I hoped I had made that clear in my notes when talking about the standard repertoire. The next 4 opera I am due to see I have all seen before. Straying into another thread, I'd really like to see Semiramide as it's rarely performed. The ROH offer is to hear it but see something else - no thanks Mr Alden. Good though the standard repertoire is it is a pity I am going to more repeats.

To show some of us are singing from the same libretto I will quote verismissimo from earlier in this thread:

What joy it is to discover that music one thought one didn't enjoy is entrancing. Swathes of it.

I would say "didn't know one enjoyed" instead of "thought one didn't" but it's nearly my thought, I seek variety and there is swathes of it.

I apologise for the extras words here to explain what I thought was obvious and ask readers to just ignore the above empty post. Please can we focus on the positive ideas.