Berlioz - Béatrice et Bénédict

[french frank]

Have just bought my ticket for WNO's production of Béatrice et Bénédict next spring. On principle I always go to any opera that I don't already know but, mmmm ...

Given the savaging another lateish 19th-c. French work - Massenet's Werther - has been getting in some quarters here, do people think more highly of B et B? Musically? Dramatically?

[Mandryka]

Like most of Berlioz's operas, I find B&B unmemorable: there are moments when it sparks into life, but they are only moments. But then I've never liked the source work - grindingly predictable (and written in prose), with a resistible pair of egotists at its centre.

I don't think I exactly savaged Werther.....just pointed out a basic flaw in its dramaturgy.

[french frank]

Like most of Berlioz's operas, I find B&B unmemorable: there are moments when it sparks into life, but they are only moments. But then I've never liked the source work - grindingly predictable (and written in prose), with a resistible pair of egotists at its centre.

I don't think I exactly savaged Werther.....just pointed out a basic flaw in its dramaturgy.

There are times when opera plots benefit immeasurably from having had surgical removals from the original, but the synopsis of BetB (the only thing I'm judging by) didn't seem to leave a great deal. My main hope is that the music will be worth it, though I don't think I've ever been to an opera (even one I haven't enjoyed and hope never to see again) where I haven't felt it was worth the ticket price to find out for myself . So I am looking forward to it.

(I did muse over the verb 'savage' - but you weren't the only one who was unimpressed)

[aeolium]

I prefer Benvenuto Cellini to BetB, though I will go and see the latter in the WNO production at Cardiff in the autumn. I think that as with Beethoven the operatic form did not come easily to Berlioz, and there is always a tension with the impulse towards drama through orchestral narrative. For this reason, the 'dramatic legend' (as Berlioz called it) La Damnation de Faust works better than any of the operas and is imo the best, and the most concise, musical dramatisation of the Faust legend.

[Mandryka]

I prefer Benvenuto Cellini to BetB, though I will go and see the latter in the WNO production at Cardiff in the autumn. I think that as with Beethoven the operatic form did not come easily to Berlioz, and there is always a tension with the impulse towards drama through orchestral narrative. For this reason, the 'dramatic legend' (as Berlioz called it) La Damnation de Faust works better than any of the operas and is imo the best, and the most concise, musical dramatisation of the Faust legend.

I would agree with you about LDdF, though even that has its share of problems (and interesting to note that only Goethe really made something spectacular out of the Faust legend; Marlowe's play, some fine poetry apart, is a shambolically episodic affair).

It's hard not to think of Berlioz as the 'missing link' between Beethoven and Wagner, a composer who had more ideas for great works than actual great works to his credit. In Symphonie Fantastique and (bits of) Les Troyens, you can hear him attempting to bring something huge and different into the world...but never quite getting there (Daniel Barenboim has said words to this effect in the past).

[vinteuil]

It's hard not to think of Berlioz as the 'missing link' between Beethoven and Wagner, a composer who had more ideas for great works than actual great works to his credit. In Symphonie Fantastique and (bits of) Les Troyens, you can hear him attempting to bring something huge and different into the world...but never quite getting there .

I think it helps if you try to listen to Berlioz as Berlioz, rather than trying to see him as a missing link between Beethoven and Wagner, or otherwise trying to slot him into a particular school or tradition.

I love Berlioz - but I don't think he necessarily 'leads' anywhere. In the same way that I think other of my favourite composers - Scarlatti, Chopin - are 'one-offs' who do not really have successors.

[Mahlerei]

I think it helps if you try to listen to Berlioz as Berlioz, rather than trying to see him as a missing link between Beethoven and Wagner, or otherwise trying to slot him into a particular school or tradition.

I love Berlioz - but I don't think he necessarily 'leads' anywhere. In the same way that I think other of my favourite composers - Scarlatti, Chopin - are 'one-offs' who do not really have successors.

Very well put - Berlioz was a true original.

[Chris Newman]

Originally Posted by Mandryka

It's hard not to think of Berlioz as the 'missing link' between Beethoven and Wagner, a composer who had more ideas for great works than actual great works to his credit. In Symphonie Fantastique and (bits of) Les Troyens, you can hear him attempting to bring something huge and different into the world...but never quite getting there .

I think it helps if you try to listen to Berlioz as Berlioz, rather than trying to see him as a missing link between Beethoven and Wagner, or otherwise trying to slot him into a particular school or tradition.

I love Berlioz - but I don't think he necessarily 'leads' anywhere. In the same way that I think other of my favourite composers - Scarlatti, Chopin - are 'one-offs' who do not really have successors.

I agree, Vinteuil, and much of what I write here is serious but tongue in cheek.

Many would argue that Wagner and Verdi were the twin peaks of nineteeth century opera. Be that as it may, nineteenth cenury opera, its roots, branches and cross-fertilisation are all amazingly complex. Berlioz set out on a journey that led into an under-developed cul-de-sac. The nearest anyone came to emulating Berlioz was Offenbach in his unfinished Les Contes de Hoffman.

Those who followed the routes of Meyerbeer and Rossini were the end of that branch line: Gounod, Bellini and Donizetti. Verdi on the other hand, after long following the sound of rumpty-tumpty, suddenly sprang out on his own discovering in his last three masterworks the roots of verismo which had bubbled along beneath the surface (possibly since Fidelio) in France via Halevy's La Juive and Bizet's Carmen before bursting out fully in Verdi's Falstaff, Puccini and other assorted one act Italians. Of course, Verdi learnt so much whilst in Paris working on Don Carlos and Wagner showed him dramatic continuity, pacing and use of motifs.

I think that Berlioz was heroically trying to create something grander and less shallow and pompous than certainly Meyerbeer (and possibly Rossini). Had he lived longer and more comfortably he might have produced more tautly structured works like Wagner (after all themes and leit-motifs were creeping in in Damnation of Faust and Les Troyens) but the way there was not yet ready for Frenchmen...French music was rushing into a frivolous phase rather like Britain at the end of Handel's reign: OK so Offenbach repented . Meanwhile on the serious side, Ah! Charpentier's Louise, a good shove from Massenet and Debussy's Pelleas! France slipped off on its own path with heady stuff, trailing just a whiff of Wagnerian perfumes but before it got far the twentieth century kicked music into touch.

[amateur51]

I would agree with you about LDdF, though even that has its share of problems (and interesting to note that only Goethe really made something spectacular out of the Faust legend;.

Alfred Brendel would disagree with you there in relation to Liszt B minor sonata

[Estelle]

French Frank,
Having considered carefully all the input above, may I venture my opinion? It is that you are in for a treat! I can think of worse things than Shakespeare rendered into beautiful melodies which, given a few repetitions, are guaranteed to remain with you and brighten some future day. Granted, some of Béatrice et Bénédict is frothy, but it's all in good fun, as was the poet's original. And there is the kernel of truth to it, that, in marrying, independent-minded men and women like our heroine and hero must sacrifice some part of their current selves in order to be enriched by a marital relationship. This is a light-hearted opera with a happy ending--something one doesn't often encounter. I wish you the enjoyment of it! ("Le vin de Syracuse!")

I might add that B&B, commissioned by the impresario Bénazet, is the only one of Berlioz's operas which brought him any success under his own baton during his lifetime. He conducted the first performances in Baden-Baden in 1862 and the revival in 1863.

Mary

[french frank]

Thanks for the comments, Estelle.

My only (slight) disappointment is that I've finally managed to confirm that it will be sung in English and thus is, as indeed they announce, Beatrice and Benedict. I think sung French is beautiful, but it does seem to be the language that companies tend to shy away from.

[Chris Newman]

There was a delightful performance in 1969 at the Proms when the entire cast had us all rolling in the aisles especially Derek Hammond-Stroud as Somarone. He has "composed" a little something for the wedding and turned to THE OBOIST (Terence Sutcliffe) with the line "Come forward, Master Sutcliffe, please." We had a terrific cast and the storyline was told by two young kids named Bernard Lloyd and Helen Mirren not to mention Janet Suzman and Alan Howard.

Thursday 31 July 1969, 7:30PM



Hector Berlioz Béatrice et Bénédict


Yvonne Minton Béatrice - mezzo-soprano
John Mitchinson Bénédict - tenor
Sheila Armstrong Hero
Michael Langdon Don Pedro
Elizabeth Bainbridge Ursula
Derek Hammond-Stroud Somarone
David Bowman Claudio
Janet Suzman Béatrice - speaker
Alan Howard Bénédict - speaker
Helen Mirren narrator
Bernard Lloyd narrator


BBC Symphony Orchestra
BBC Singers (1924-34, Wireless Chorus; 1935-8, 1942-3, 1946-72, BBC Chorus)
Colin Davis conductor

[Mandryka]

Thanks for the comments, Estelle.

My only (slight) disappointment is that I've finally managed to confirm that it will be sung in English and thus is, as indeed they announce, Beatrice and Benedict. I think sung French is beautiful, but it does seem to be the language that companies tend to shy away from.

Probably an argument for another thread, but this alone would incline me NOT to see it. 19th century Romantic opera, imo, does not respond well to translation into English, as - to English ears - it's hard to efface the 'folk memory' of Gilbert and Sullivan lampooning the whole genre.

Really, I'd rather hear something sung in the poorly pronounced original libretto than in crystal clear English translation.

You're right about the French language being shied away from: there does seem to be a tendency to favour opera recordings of French works with Francophone casts.

[Estelle]

FF,
I agree with you that the choice of English for this particular opera is unfortunate, but, then, it is the language of the original Shakespeare, and the comedy will certainly come across more clearly.