Opera North: Ring

[Flosshilde]

the "flaws" you have cited are subjective opinion;

Well of course it is - everything we say on this board about our reaction to things is subjective opinion. It would become a bit tedious if we kept saying so. I would assume that that was understood - & if something isn't my opinion, I would say "X thinks that ..." or "Y suggested that ...".

And despite your musical analysis, I still think that the Prologue & Act 1 of Gotterdammerung is dramatically flawed.

[ARBurton]

Actually, I have a pretty accurate way of telling whether a performance succeeds or not: by sitting (or standing) during a performance. If I start to wonder what I am going to have for dinner, or whether I left the cooker on, then it's fair to say that I haven't been totally gripped. A reasonable performance of Walkure Acts 1 and 2 never does that for me. It's only the part in the middle of Act 3 that I may lose interest slightly. Likewise the bits of Siegfried I mentioned.

I .

Ah yes, the Meandering Mind. I find that sometimes happens in Act 1 of Siegfried, but that`s the only bit of the Ring where I experience this. Now Tannhauser on the other hand.......

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well of course it is - everything we say on this board about our reaction to things is subjective opinion.

Of course it isn't; the key schemes Wagner uses that I mentioned earlier aren't my opinion - nobody is going to come along and say "well, actually, I think the chord in bar two is one of Bb major". That is the point - analyse what Wagner does in this Music, and it doesn't matter if you like it or not: the mastery of tonality, rhythm, structure, harmony, orchestration is absolutely obvious.

And despite your musical analysis, I still think that the Prologue & Act 1 of Gotterdammerung is dramatically flawed.

I have no problem in your still thinking so, but the analysis demonstrates that you are misguided. Wagner's Musikdramas aren't stories with Music tagged on like a Hollywood film score of the 1940s - their impetus is primarily Musical; if it were not for this Music, we wouldn't be at all interested in Wagner's work. The Music creates the narrative sense.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As Wagner was always aiming to create a total work of art I think it's perfectly fair to talk about whether it succeeds as a whole, rather than focus on certain aspects at the expense of others. Even a detailed musical analysis doesn't prove objectively whether something is good or not, ultimately it comes down to opinion.

I disagree - and profoundly so with regard to your second sentence here.

[Flosshilde]

Of course it isn't; the key schemes Wagner uses that I mentioned earlier aren't my opinion - nobody is going to come along and say "well, actually, I think the chord in bar two is one of Bb major". That is the point - analyse what Wagner does in this Music, and it doesn't matter if you like it or not: the mastery of tonality, rhythm, structure, harmony, orchestration is absolutely obvious.

The musical analysis is objective, but your view of what it does is subjective.

I have no problem in your still thinking so, but the analysis demonstrates that you are misguided.

It does nothing of the sort.

Wagner's Musikdramas aren't stories with Music tagged on like a Hollywood film score of the 1940s - their impetus is primarily Musical; if it were not for this Music, we wouldn't be at all interested in Wagner's work. The Music creates the narrative sense.

I think Wagner might disagree with you on this - he was writing primarily dramas - which used music and the stage to tell the story. He was as concerned with what was happening on stage as he was with what was happening in the music, and had - generally - an extremely sound dramatic sense. I think it failed in Act 1 - possibly because he first thought of writing an opera about Siegfried's death before he conceived of the Ring.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The musical analysis is objective, but your view of what it does is subjective.

What is subjective about my illustration of what it does in #109 (other than the word "seemlessly)"? Either the progression of tonalities is how I have described them (in other words as Wagner uses them) or I've got it wrong. If patterns are used and reused in this way, then it isn't subjective - it's a demonstration of how Wagner is using Music to create a narrative. Whether or not we "like" that narrative is neither here nor there - the mastery of how the Music is used is what has been demonstrated.

It does nothing of the sort.

I think it does, because it demonstrates that the Music is active and vital - more than just the "jolly-off-to-new-adventures stuff" you described in #99. To alter the narrative of the Music in order to make the story less "long and diffuse" (#106) is misguided.

I think Wagner might disagree with you on this - he was writing primarily dramas - which used music and the stage to tell the story. He was as concerned with what was happening on stage as he was with what was happening in the music, and had - generally - an extremely sound dramatic sense. I think it failed in Act 1 - possibly because he first thought of writing an opera about Siegfried's death before he conceived of the Ring.

I think you're absolutely right in suspecting that Wagner would be furious with me. But, for all his protestations, he was an imperfect dramatist - as you have been saying - and a perfect composer (as I have been saying); the story is told primarily and most impressively in the Music. The story as Wagner presents it away from the Music is frequently as flawed as you have described it (and for the reason you suggest, I think) - but the Musical narrative is an astonishing achievement that cannot be altered. I put up with those flaws in the words in order to revel in the total mastery of every irreplaceable bar.

[vinteuil]

- but the Musical narrative is an astonishing achievement that cannot be altered. I put up with those flaws in the words in order to revel in the total mastery of every irreplaceable bar.

... I think he quite likes it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You noticed, huh?

[Darkbloom]

I disagree - and profoundly so with regard to your second sentence here.

Ah, but is that your subjective opinion, or can you cite me examples to back it up?

Look, you can give me all the musical analysis you want on any given point, but in the end it comes down to a subjective opinion of whether it convinces or not. Demonstrating how it's put together doesn't, unfortunately, tell us why it's any good, or why it moves some people and not others. Wagner has probably been the most important composer to me overall, but I don't think everything he did was perfect. If anything, the rough edges make him more interesting.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ah, but is that your subjective opinion, or can you cite me examples to back it up?

Look, you can give me all the musical analysis you want on any given point, but in the end it comes down to a subjective opinion of whether it convinces or not. Demonstrating how it's put together doesn't, unfortunately, tell us why it's any good, or why it moves some people and not others.

Absolutely - I've done a lot of analysis of Verdi, and I still don't get why people love the stuff before Aida (well, except Act One of Traviata - that's superb). Reception is a matter of psychology and possibly even Biology (the way our species has evolved so that we rely on each other's individual ways of processing the same information). Analysis - and, I have to say, that isn't really what I've been doing here; merely an "and then-ist" "running commentary" on the Music - does (I believe) at least demonstrate patterns of thought at work in the Music that might otherwise be overlooked. I find this useful very often in helping me overcome my dislikes and arrive at an appreciation of what the composer/writer/artist has achieved.

Wagner has probably been the most important composer to me overall, but I don't think everything he did was perfect. If anything, the rough edges make him more interesting.

Beethoven for me. But I think that there are plenty of "rough edges" in Wagner's work - just not in the Music (from Rheingold on at any rate).

[Flosshilde]

But I think that there are plenty of "rough edges" in Wagner's work - just not in the Music (from Rheingold on at any rate).

You don't seem to have noticed that I was talking about the drama - which is the combination of the music, text, what's happening on the stage, and possibly other things.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You don't seem to have noticed that I was talking about the drama - which is the combination of the music, text, what's happening on the stage, and possibly other things.

I had - but back in #109, in reply to Bert's reply to your #106, I made my opinion clear that whilst the action/story/plot does indeed seem to be as "diffuse" as you said it was, the Music is is taut and securely handled. Wagner may have wanted his work to have been taken as an integrated organism, but the flaws are in his adaptation of the story in attempting to get too much into a single two-hour span in his libretto. The frustration/impatience/boredom/whatever that you feel in the second half of the Prelude to Act One turn into my own unequivocal delight and astonishment when I focus my attention on the Music. That has to be the better experience of the two?

[Flosshilde]

Two experiences? One over-all experience, surely.

From Wikipedia -
"In his extensive book Opera and Drama (completed in 1851) [Wagner] takes these ideas further, describing in detail his idea of the union of opera and drama (later called music drama despite Wagner's disapproval of the term), in which the individual arts are subordinated to a common purpose.

Wagner's own opera cycle Der Ring des Nibelungen, and specifically its components Das Rheingold and Die Walküre represent perhaps the closest he, or anyone else, came to realising these ideals"

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesamt...gner.27s_ideas)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Two experiences? One over-all experience, surely.

OK - but one that I'm enjoying every second of whilst you're sitting grumbling about how you'd wish they'd get to the bit where Siegfried reaches the Gibichung Hall!

[jonfan]

Opera North - definitely the People's Ring, so what about doing the whole at the Proms?