Met Live - Die Frau Ohne Schatten

[Ein Heldenleben]

I see that Gwyneth Jones was Barak's wife back in 1987. I can't remember now when her wobble became overly obtrusive.

Look she was a wonderful singer but she did have this habit of swooping up to the note then wobbling around it before hitting it . Been listening a lot to Linda Esther Gray and Rita Hunter recently. The former had a very pure sound, Rita a very sweet vibrato . Nilsson for me had a phenomenally accurate pitch but I didn’t care at all for the tone of her voice. Just too harsh. Margaret Price and Linda E.G were for me peerless as Isolde. Last nights South African Empress Elza Van Der Heever had pretty much the ideal voice - absolutely beautiful. I see she is in her forties ..I thought her voice sounded much younger,

[Pulcinella]

Look she was a wonderful singer but she did have this habit of swooping up to the note then wobbling around it before hitting it . Been listening a lot to Linda Esther Gray and Rita Hunter recently. The former had a very pure sound, Rita a very sweet vibrato . Nilsson for me had a phenomenally accurate pitch but I didn’t care at all for the tone of her voice. Just too harsh. Margaret Price and Linda E.G were for me peerless as Isolde. Last nights South African Empress Elza Van Der Heever had pretty much the ideal voice - absolutely beautiful.

I used to have one of those 90-minute DG Walkman tapes (recently mentioned in another thread) that I'm pretty sure had her (GJ) singing the closing part of Salome: spot on and intensely chilling as she sings that she has kissed the severed head's lips, iirc!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I used to have one of those 90-minute DG Walkman tapes (recently mentioned in another thread) that I'm pretty sure had her (GJ) singing the closing part of Salome: spot on and intensely chilling as she sings that she has kissed the severed head's lips, iirc!

A great dramatic soprano no question.

[smittims]

A propos 'take your pick' I refer you to a delightful rehearsal disc (Testament) of Otto Klemperer in the B minor Mass trying to get the basses to pitch an E sharp accurately. He 'sings' it, but oh dear, his E sharp was anywhere and everywhere between E flat and G. One hears chuckling from the Philharmonia Choir.

[kernelbogey]

Indeed and what a musician he was. How much vibrato should a singer employ?

Well, once again, 'I agree with Nick'.

I listened for a while last night but since I don't know the work and hadn't prepped, coming into it in Act II, Stemme's vibrato was too much for me then.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I think HIP performance has change my taste around vibrato. (Somehow I'm more ok with it in Wagner.)

[Nick Armstrong]

I see that Gwyneth Jones was Barak's wife back in 1987. I can't remember now when her wobble became overly obtrusive.

She was in 1992 as well. I never enjoyed her voice but in context, in the theatre (as EH points out above) it’s the performance as a whole that comes across without the highlighting of cruel microphones.

I might try and dip into sections of last night’s relay which don’t feature Ms. Stemme….

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well, once again, 'I agree with Nick'.

I listened for a while last night but since I don't know the work and hadn't prepped, coming into it in Act II, Stemme's vibrato was too much for me then.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I think HIP performance has change my taste around vibrato. (Somehow I'm more ok with it in Wagner.)

Many singers in this Forum who know what they are talking about so please correct me . As I understand it spinto ( Verdi, Puccini , Wagner , Strauss ) singing involves using just about muscle above the waist including as Pavarotti once memorably said in interview with Melvyn Bragg the muscles you use to s*** with (sic). Melvyn laughed . Luciano went quiet and said “I’m deadly serious “ . He never really developed a wobble perhaps because of those sphincter muscles (sorry to be graphic but that’s what he said ). Also I suspect because of his incredible technique. Other voices don’t age as well and develop a wobble.
These spinto singers are having to make themselves heard over a vast orchestra in a dry 2,000 seat theatre. With Baroque singing the band is usually much smaller and with less powerful instruments - often the venue is smaller as well or has a helpful echoey acoustic.

[Master Jacques]

Many singers in this Forum who know what they are talking about so please correct me . As I understand it spinto ( Verdi, Puccini , Wagner , Strauss ) singing involves using just about muscle above the waist including as Pavarotti once memorably said in interview with Melvyn Bragg the muscles you use to s*** with (sic). Melvyn laughed . Luciano went quiet and said “I’m deadly serious “ . He never really developed a wobble perhaps because of those sphincter muscles (sorry to be graphic but that’s what he said ). Also I suspect because of his incredible technique. Other voices don’t age as well and develop a wobble.
These spinto singers are having to make themselves heard over a vast orchestra in a dry 2,000 seat theatre. With Baroque singing the band is usually much smaller and with less powerful instruments - often the venue is smaller as well or has a helpful echoey acoustic.

I have never heard of 'spinto' referring to anything other than a particular vocal weight and sound - somewhere between lyric and dramatic, but with a 'cut' to it that makes the upper tessitura particularly pure and carrying. And I am not aware of teachers teaching it as a particular style, with its own brand of voice production, i.e. I don't think there are specialist 'spinto maestros' who concentrate on it as something technically distinct from lyric and dramatic singing. Every singer does their thing differently (which is why some voices last longer than others) as far as muscular control is concerned: the differences account, in part, for their differences in range and timbre.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I have never heard of 'spinto' referring to anything other than a particular vocal weight and sound - somewhere between lyric and dramatic, but with a 'cut' to it that makes the upper tessitura particularly pure and carrying. And I am not aware of teachers teaching it as a particular style, with its own brand of voice production, i.e. I don't think there are specialist 'spinto maestros' who concentrate on it as something technically distinct from lyric and dramatic singing. Every singer does their thing differently (which is why some voices last longer than others) as far as muscular control is concerned: the differences account, in part, for their differences in range and timbre.

Yes it’s a particular style needed for certain works by certain composers . I would have thought singers like Pavarotti would have adjusted his methods for certain roles even arias within those works. I’d always understood to be the sort of voice needed for the heavier Verdi , Puccini , Wagner roles. Maybe it’s just been used too much as a catch all.

[Master Jacques]

Yes it’s a particular style needed for certain works by certain composers . I would have thought singers like Pavarotti would have adjusted his methods for certain roles even arias within those works. I’d always understood to be the sort of voice needed for the heavier Verdi , Puccini , Wagner roles. Maybe it’s just been used too much as a catch all.

I agree with your last point very strongly. 'Spinto' is not a singing style, any more than 'lyric' or 'heroic', but a catch-all term used to roughly net a range of individual voices. The 19th century operatic age wouldn't have dreamed of categorising voices like this, of course, contenting itself with pointing to 'spinto' elements within an individual's vocal armoury. 'Bel canto' is an example of a genuine style, because it adopts certain rules of voice production, for a variety of vocal types, over the entire repertoire, Italian, French, German and even Russian or English.

We would not, I think, describe singers such as Carlo Bergonzi or Plácido Domingo as 'spinto', yet they sang many roles (such as Manrico) for which 'spinto' is the claimed 'style'. So that's where the problem lies. It isn't a style, but a vocal characteristic. And 'spinto' has probably been amalgamated over time with the associated but different quality of 'squillo', which is I guess what Pavarotti was actually talking about.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I agree with your last point very strongly. 'Spinto' is not a singing style, any more than 'lyric' or 'heroic', but a catch-all term used to roughly net a range of individual voices. The 19th century operatic age wouldn't have dreamed of categorising voices like this, of course, contenting itself with pointing to 'spinto' elements within an individual's vocal armoury. 'Bel canto' is an example of a genuine style, because it adopts certain rules of voice production, for a variety of vocal types, over the entire repertoire, Italian, French, German and even Russian or English.

We would not, I think, describe singers such as Carlo Bergonzi or Plácido Domingo as 'spinto', yet they sang many roles (such as Manrico) for which 'spinto' is the claimed 'style'. So that's where the problem lies. It isn't a style, but a vocal characteristic. And 'spinto' has probably been amalgamated over time with the associated but different quality of 'squillo', which is I guess what Pavarotti was actually talking about.

All these terms have an ambiguity to them. Shouldn’t all singing be bel canto if taken literally ?
Sat next to a very experienced opera goer the other day who thought the Cavaradossi was too “bel canto,”
I didn’t know what they meant . Too legato or smooth ? .One thing he certainly had an amazing amount of ping in the top notes.

[LHC]

All these terms have an ambiguity to them. Shouldn’t all singing be bel canto if taken literally ?
Sat next to a very experienced opera goer the other day who thought the Cavaradossi was too “bel canto,”
I didn’t know what they meant . Too legato or smooth ? .One thing he certainly had an amazing amount of ping in the top notes.

It sounds as if your experienced opera going neighbour wanted more can belto than bel canto.

[Keraulophone]

There's a Beecham story (of course) of his waiting while Léon Goossens gave the A. 'There you are, Gentlemen,' said Beecham: 'Take your pick.'

A similar thing has happened during (cathedral) choir rehearsals along the lines of: Director of Music to tenor section: "Gentlemen, which of that varied selection of B flats shall we agree on?"

I did tune in to the relay of Die Frau for a little while, but could not tolerate the uncontrolled vibrato of Nina Stemme, who, sadly, is rapidly passing her sing-by date. Attending the Midland Bank Covent Garden Prom production conducted by Solti with Helga Dernesch and Walter Berry for the price of 50p was one of the formative experiences of my musical youth.

[duncan]

Enjoying the vibrato jokes, keep them coming at a steady pitch.

Stemme's wobble has sadly been evident in live performances for several years now to the point where she is no longer a draw for me. I've plenty of great memories from 10-15 years ago. The Met is an unforgiving barn too, not the place if you are struggling a bit vocally.

Issachah Savage sounded great, hope he can keep developing, and overall I really enjoyed the performance.

[Prommer]

And 'spinto' has probably been amalgamated over time with the associated but different quality of 'squillo', which is I guess what Pavarotti was actually talking about.

Excellent thought.