Aida

[Ein Heldenleben]

A rewarding and enlightening discussion; thanks.

I began my acquaintance with opera by listening on radio , as an extension of my listening to music generally. As I couldn't see what was happening, and usually couldn't understand the words (even, frequently, when they were sung in English) I decided I'd concentrate in the music. I did sometimes get a libretto and read it and follow the story, but often I'd find it uninteresting , and reflect that it was the music that drew me to listen to opera.

I don't scoff at those who stress the importance of the drama, the human situations, what it tells us about the value of life,etc. If that's what they like, fair enough; I hope they enjoy it. Maybe it's because those things don't interest me as much as music that I choose to devote what energy I have to the music.

With operas I know and love , such as Vaughan Williams, Delius, Tippett and others , I do know and follow the drama, but with an unfamilar opera where the story appears to be pretty conventional and predictable, I don't bother. Chacun a son gout.

Smittims - you’ve chosen three opera composers who , while producing wonderful music , are famous for writing fairly undramatic operas with slightly duff libretti . Come on give Verdi a chance . He’s just better at all of it.,,

[vinteuil]

... we cognoscenti may know that Aida is an intimate chamber opera - but the advertising to many of the punters bigs-up the heffalumps....

.

[Master Jacques]

Smittims - you’ve chosen three opera composers who , while producing wonderful music , are famous for writing fairly undramatic operas with slightly duff libretti . Come on give Verdi a chance . He’s just better at all of it.,,

As Jack Point says, "I can't let that pass!" A simple list should suffice...

RVW: Sir John in Love is Shakespeare's Merry Wives, with an admixture of wonderful poetry by Ben Jonson and others thrown in. Riders to the Sea is a near-complete setting of a masterly play by Synge. The Pilgrim's Progress takes nearly all its dialogue and situations from another undisputed classic of the language. That leaves The Poisoned Kiss -- for which I offer no defence, Mi'lud -- and Hugh The Drover, which is no worse a libretto than Peter Grimes.

Delius: without getting into a spat about the literary quality of his self-supplied libretti, he is writing a new and radical kind of opera, where the action is more internalised than externalised. We need to do him the service of listening to Fennimore and Gerda, A Village Romeo and Juliet and Koanga with that in mind. These operas lack nothing in drama, however limited their physical action. And they are good libretti for the composer's purpose.

Tippett: I'm surprised that we're still arguing about the quality of Tippett's libretti in this day and age. I agree with Peter Hall, of course, who thought they were excellent because they wasted no time and provided the composer with exactly the springboard he needed, to write five of the most remarkable - and significant - operas of his time. A Midsummer Marriage and The Knot Garden need no defence whatsoever, as they are cogent, effective and memorably phrased. As for King Priam .... well, I am currently reading a wonderful novel called Ransom (by David Malouf) who draws on Tippett's superlative characterisation of the old Trojan King and his meeting with Achilles. This libretto is so good, and so richly suggestive, that it could be performed as a stand-alone play. "Undramatic" is not a criticism I've ever heard of Tippett's operas.

[smittims]

I wasn't aware that I was criticising Verdi. We seem to be at cross-purposes. I agree with Vinteuil. Aida is often misrepresented by memories of spectacular open-air stagings, when in fact most of it consists of private monologues and dialogues, some of them secret.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I wasn't aware that I was criticising Verdi. We seem to be at cross-purposes. I agree with Vinteuil. Aida is often misrepresented by memories of spectacular open-air stagings, when in fact most of it consists of private monologues and dialogues, some of them secret.

I stand by my criticism of them I’m afraid.The Sir John In Love libretto is terribly weak and twee - laughable in the wrong sense.
But I don’t want to hijack this Aida thread. The Verdi opera is a masterpiece . Of the operas you list Midsummer Marriage probably comes closest but it has its longeurs hasn’t it? The thing is I find RTTS , Pilgrims Progress and the Tippett operas in some ways more musically interesting than Verdi but I know a pretty much perfect music drama when I see it. None of those British operas come close - maybe RTTS but it’s pretty small scale isn’t it? A one act vignette really.

[Simon Biazeck]

As Jack Point says, "I can't let that pass!" A simple list should suffice...

RVW: Sir John in Love is Shakespeare's Merry Wives, with an admixture of wonderful poetry by Ben Jonson and others thrown in. Riders to the Sea is a near-complete setting of a masterly play by Synge. The Pilgrim's Progress takes nearly all its dialogue and situations from another undisputed classic of the language. That leaves The Poisoned Kiss -- for which I offer no defence, Mi'lud -- and Hugh The Drover, which is no worse a libretto than Peter Grimes.

Delius: without getting into a spat about the literary quality of his self-supplied libretti, he is writing a new and radical kind of opera, where the action is more internalised than externalised. We need to do him the service of listening to Fennimore and Gerda, A Village Romeo and Juliet and Koanga with that in mind. These operas lack nothing in drama, however limited their physical action. And they are good libretti for the composer's purpose.

Tippett: I'm surprised that we're still arguing about the quality of Tippett's libretti in this day and age. I agree with Peter Hall, of course, who thought they were excellent because they wasted no time and provided the composer with exactly the springboard he needed, to write five of the most remarkable - and significant - operas of his time. A Midsummer Marriage and The Knot Garden need no defence whatsoever, as they are cogent, effective and memorably phrased. As for King Priam .... well, I am currently reading a wonderful novel called Ransom (by David Malouf) who draws on Tippett's superlative characterisation of the old Trojan King and his meeting with Achilles. This libretto is so good, and so richly suggestive, that it could be performed as a stand-alone play. "Undramatic" is not a criticism I've ever heard of Tippett's operas.

Excellent.

[Master Jacques]

I stand by my criticism of them I’m afraid.The Sir John In Love libretto is terribly weak and twee - laughable in the wrong sense.
But I don’t want to hijack this Aida thread. The Verdi opera is a masterpiece . Of the operas you list Midsummer Marriage probably comes closest but it has its longeurs hasn’t it? The thing is I find RTTS , Pilgrims Progress and the Tippett operas in some ways more musically interesting than Verdi but I know a pretty much perfect music drama when I see it. None of those British operas come close - maybe RTTS but it’s pretty small scale isn’t it? A one act vignette really.

If you could point to anything "weak and twee" in Sir John in Love's Shakespeare text, I'd be interested to hear it. Some of us actively prefer its baggy valorisation of the community to the streamlined Goldoni farce Boito concocted for Verdi. To compare the two operas musically would of course serve no purpose.

I personally find no longeurs whatsoever in A Midsummer Marriage, and much prefer hearing it uncut over the cut version which has (deplorably) defaced both official recordings. Thank goodness that complete performances are in unofficial circulation. Those of us keen on computer game RPGs love this work - every bar of it - to distraction. As with Walton's Troilus and Cressida, the more you cut, the longer it seems to be. Which tells us something.

Some operas (c.f. that Falstaff question again) are of course more interesting in their imperfection than any alleged perfection. Verdi's Otello is after all rather a curate's egg, musically and dramatically, don't you think? But that doesn't make it any less gripping. La cenerentola is perfect. And also perfectly bland (in my opinion, of course!)

I would certainly agree that Riders to the Sea does reach a perfected level rarely encountered. It's not for nothing been described as "the English Pélléas"; and size isn't everything!

[Sir Velo]

Chaps - it's "longueurs" with two "u"s!

[Pulcinella]

Chaps - it's "longueurs" with two "u"s!

That only makes them even longer.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Chaps - it's "longueurs" with two "u"s!

Yes longeur is length of course . So when and where does longeur lead to longueurs? Not in Aida that’s for sure…
(All part of my back to the thread campaign)

[Master Jacques]

Yes longeur is length of course . So when and where does longeur lead to longueurs? Not in Aida that’s for sure…
(All part of my back to the thread campaign)

On that, we're in perfect accord. Aida is an opera where there isn't one note too many.

As for the libretto ... well, its most interesting feature is the authorship of the verses for the final duet ('O terra addio' ). As most opera fans know, the composer wrote these lines himself, sending them to Ghislanzoni as a rhythmic 'place marker' for the poet to provide a quality text. The trouble was, that by the time his librettist had come up with some immortal lines, Verdi had already set the 'place markers', and that was that!

[richardfinegold]

Well maybe that’s Chicago Richard ! The Met opera audience must be one of the best informed audiences in the world if the shouted out answers to the very difficult questions in the Met Opera quiz are anything to go by . The shout -out happens when the unbelievably well informed panel are unable to answer the questions. There’s always some one in the audience who knows the answer. (The answer is usually Rosa Ponselle or Lawrence Tibbett.)
Also from the shots of the Met audience in the cinema streams they all look very intelligent and not necessarily that ostentatiously wealthy. Am I allowed to say that ?

There is no question that that one finds a more sophisticated populace in New York. I’m sure that there must be more opera people here in Chicago that are more knowledgeable and understanding of the music, but I haven’t made their acquaintance, by and large.
We all live in our bubbles .

[smittims]

I'm staying out of this one.

smittims has left the building...

[Sir Velo]

Don't be quelled Smittims. In fact, I often think a 'like" button would be a welcome innovation to the forum, allowing one ro express quiet approval of sentiments without needless repetition. A most enjoyable thread!

[smittims]