Aida

[Ein Heldenleben]

Thank you. This is the 2nd production of Aïda I have done at the ROH, and it's always a thrill to sing - probably my favourite Verdi work. I have sung it at ENO and on their Opera in English recording too.

That pianissimo singing in the Temple singing - MAGNIFICENT.
apart from the coughers behind me.,,

[Simon Biazeck]

That pianissimo singing in the Temple singing - MAGNIFICENT.
apart from the coughers behind me.,,

I am convinced that pppp playing or singing induces coughing, or the attempt to suppress it makes it more likely. One explosion - the only way I can describe it - goes down in aural history.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I am convinced that pppp playing or singing induces coughing, or the attempt to suppress it makes it more likely. One explosion - the only way I can describe it - goes down in aural history.

Aida is replete with hidden coughing opportunities (Loud tutti) . The night I went to this production I moved balcony to stalls to avoid the coughers behind me. There was also an extraordinary cough at the end of an exquisitely sung Act One Aida aria right over the pianissimo end : and also a furious woman / man row ending with the words “oh for Gods sake shut up.”

[richardfinegold]

For years as. Wagnerite I slightly turned my nose up at Verdi and only really knew Aida from the Triumphal March. Now older and wiser I realise it’s a rare example of a popular masterpiece - something that Wagner couldn’t quite manage - except possibly in Die Meistersinger.The judgment scene must be one of the greatest in all opera - an extraordinary focus on one woman falling to pieces on stage. As for the tunes if I could write Celeste Aida and O Patria Mia my place amongst the immortals would be guaranteed, And that final duet with that vary rare and daring use of a major 7th in the melody - another masterstroke.

Thanks for setting me straight about the Ballet, although I believe most of Dancers were male. One of our party is also an Opera neophyte but a competitive ballroom dancer, and he was scornful of the quality of the dancing (they were definitely not in sync).
I am also glad that your initial impressions of the music in Aida were somewhat consistent with my initial impressions, and perhaps I will come to appreciate it more. Btw, I thought that the Judgement Scene fell somewhat flat here, but I could see the potential where this could have been much more involving

[richardfinegold]

Thanks to M.J. for setting me straight about the Ballet, although I believe most of Dancers were male. One of our party is also an Opera neophyte but a competitive ballroom dancer, and he was scornful of the quality of the dancing (they were definitely not in sync).
I am also glad that E.H. initial impressions of the music in Aida were somewhat consistent with my initial impressions, and perhaps I will come to appreciate it more. Btw, I thought that the Judgement Scene fell somewhat flat here, but I could see the potential where this could have been much more involving [/QUOTE]

[richardfinegold]

I tried to edit my last post but somehow wound up with both versions. Could a mod please delete one?

[Master Jacques]

Thanks to M.J. for setting me straight about the Ballet, although I believe most of Dancers were male.

In our day and age, I suppose male priestesses is not inconceivable. Perhaps we could ask J. K. Rowling.

[smittims]

Hi, Master Jaques; reading your reply to my post suggests that I gave a misleading impression of my approach to opera. In many cases I do follow the drama and the libretto, but more recently, when listening to an unfamiliar opera for the first time, for instance Simon Boccanegra or Ascanio in Alba, I think I would enjoy more giving my attention to the music and the orchestration rather than to the story. Many opera fans, I dare say, who love the story and the costumes, etc. care nothing for the orchestration or the tonal structure of the music. I don't say that is their 'loss'. Each to his own.

[Master Jacques]

Hi, Master Jaques; reading your reply to my post suggests that I gave a misleading impression of my approach to opera. In many cases I do follow the drama and the libretto, but more recently, when listening to an unfamiliar opera for the first time, for instance Simon Boccanegra or Ascanio in Alba, I think I would enjoy more giving my attention to the music and the orchestration rather than to the story. Many opera fans, I dare say, who love the story and the costumes, etc. care nothing for the orchestration or the tonal structure of the music. I don't say that is their 'loss'. Each to his own.

The more unfamiliar, the more need to do some "homework" on the libretto and storyline beforehand, surely?

As for those self-styled "opera fans" who pay no attention to the musical side of things, I'm afraid I would say - unashamedly - that it is their loss. More than that, it is rude to others. It's our loss if they are sitting next to us in bored incomprehension of what they're hearing. Composers and librettists put a heck of a lot of work into their creations, and it seems to me disrespectful (and self-defeating) to treat either branch of the profession in a cavalier manner. Tolerance of indifference should not be extended, when it comes to art, or much else: as T.S.Eliot puts it:

“There are three conditions which often look alike
Yet differ completely, flourish in the same hedgerow:
Attachment to self and to things and to persons, detachment
From self and from things and from persons; and, growing between them, indifference,
Which resembles the others as death resembles life.”

[Ein Heldenleben]

The more unfamiliar, the more need to do some "homework" on the libretto and storyline beforehand, surely?

As for those self-styled "opera fans" who pay no attention to the musical side of things, I'm afraid I would say - unashamedly - that it is their loss. More than that, it is rude to others. It's our loss if they are sitting next to us in bored incomprehension of what they're hearing. Composers and librettists put a heck of a lot of work into their creations, and it seems to me disrespectful (and self-defeating) to treat either branch of the profession in a cavalier manner. Tolerance of indifference should not be extended, when it comes to art, or much else: as T.S.Eliot puts it:

“There are three conditions which often look alike
Yet differ completely, flourish in the same hedgerow:
Attachment to self and to things and to persons, detachment
From self and from things and from persons; and, growing between them, indifference,
Which resembles the others as death resembles life.”

I’m hard pushed to think of a single opera fan who goes for the “costumes “and the “story.” It’s more likely to be that synthesis of music including song and drama that opera uniquely provides, Whether that is Monteverdi , Mozart, Beethoven , Wagner , Verdi, Puccini , Janacek or Britten most opera fans know it when they see it. I always get irritated when people talk about the ludicrous plots in opera . Yes some are fetched but no more so than many 18th and 19th century novels and 16th century plays. Many are completely rooted in everyday experience and in the case of Mozart and Puccini have libretti which are pretty much masterpieces in their own right.

[Master Jacques]

I’m hard pushed to think of a single opera fan who goes for the “costumes “and the “story.” It’s more likely to be that synthesis of music including song and drama that opera uniquely provides, Whether that is Monteverdi , Mozart, Beethoven , Wagner , Verdi, Puccini , Janacek or Britten most opera fans know it when they see it. I always get irritated when people talk about the ludicrous plots in opera . Yes some are fetched but no more so than many 18th and 19th century novels and 16th century plays. Many are completely rooted in everyday experience and in the case of Mozart and Puccini have libretti which are pretty much masterpieces in their own right.

It seems to me that Glyndebourne audiences (for instance) often fall into precisely that category, judging from some of their responses to what's put before them.

I share your irritation at the smart-faced comments made about "ludicrous" plots, of course. If they're not rooted in "everyday experience", they're rooted in fairy-tale and archetypes, without which we would be hard put to make sense of everyday experience. Aida is a very good case in point: despite its fantasy-Egyptian setting, it has oodles of good stuff to tell us about relationships, familial as well as amorous, politics, war and ritual religion in our own fantasy-world!

I'm more often astonished at the quality of opera libretti, which enable these works to last for hundreds of years, than at their shortcomings. If Piave, Cammarano or Ilica and Giacosa are "hacks" as alleged, I can only wish we had a few more such "hacks" working in 21st century theatre...

[Ein Heldenleben]

It seems to me that Glyndebourne audiences (for instance) often fall into precisely that category, judging from some of their responses to what's put before them.

I share your irritation at the smart-faced comments made about "ludicrous" plots, of course. If they're not rooted in "everyday experience", they're rooted in fairy-tale and archetypes, without which we would be hard put to make sense of everyday experience. Aida is a very good case in point: despite its fantasy-Egyptian setting, it has oodles of good stuff to tell us about relationships, familial as well as amorous, politics, war and ritual religion in our own fantasy-world!

I'm more often astonished at the quality of opera libretti, which enable these works to last for hundreds of years, than at their shortcomings. If Piave, Cammarano or Ilica and Giacosa are "hacks" as alleged, I can only wish we had a few more such "hacks" working in 21st century theatre...

Yes in the case of Glyndebourne you might be right if by costumes we mean those worn by the female audience. The irony of course is that Glyndebourne trail blazed a way of presenting the Mozart / Da Ponte operas that grounded them more in reality and with the highest contemporary music performance standards. A standard they maintained with Peter Hall to name but one. The problem is that in Act Two most of the audience are sozzled.
Yes the synthesis of Grand Opera and the urgently passionate and personal in Aida is remarkable.

[smittims]

A rewarding and enlightening discussion; thanks.

I began my acquaintance with opera by listening on radio , as an extension of my listening to music generally. As I couldn't see what was happening, and usually couldn't understand the words (even, frequently, when they were sung in English) I decided I'd concentrate in the music. I did sometimes get a libretto and read it and follow the story, but often I'd find it uninteresting , and reflect that it was the music that drew me to listen to opera.

I don't scoff at those who stress the importance of the drama, the human situations, what it tells us about the value of life,etc. If that's what they like, fair enough; I hope they enjoy it. Maybe it's because those things don't interest me as much as music that I choose to devote what energy I have to the music.

With operas I know and love , such as Vaughan Williams, Delius, Tippett and others , I do know and follow the drama, but with an unfamilar opera where the story appears to be pretty conventional and predictable, I don't bother. Chacun a son gout.

[richardfinegold]

I’m hard pushed to think of a single opera fan who goes for the “costumes “and the “story.” It’s more likely to be that synthesis of music including song and drama that opera uniquely provides, Whether that is Monteverdi , Mozart, Beethoven , Wagner , Verdi, Puccini , Janacek or Britten most opera fans know it when they see it. I always get irritated when people talk about the ludicrous plots in opera . Yes some are fetched but no more so than many 18th and 19th century novels and 16th century plays. Many are completely rooted in everyday experience and in the case of Mozart and Puccini have libretti which are pretty much masterpieces in their own right.

I know many regular Lyric Opera patrons. One is our neighbor who treated us to Aida (we bought dinner). The vast majority are there for the spectacle-the plots, sets, costumes-and the music is most definitely incidental.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I know many regular Lyric Opera patrons. One is our neighbor who treated us to Aida (we bought dinner). The vast majority are there for the spectacle-the plots, sets, costumes-and the music is most definitely incidental.

Well maybe that’s Chicago Richard ! The Met opera audience must be one of the best informed audiences in the world if the shouted out answers to the very difficult questions in the Met Opera quiz are anything to go by . The shout -out happens when the unbelievably well informed panel are unable to answer the questions. There’s always some one in the audience who knows the answer. (The answer is usually Rosa Ponselle or Lawrence Tibbett.)
Also from the shots of the Met audience in the cinema streams they all look very intelligent and not necessarily that ostentatiously wealthy. Am I allowed to say that ?