ROH 'William Tell'

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

(By the way, I've read Conchis' #118 a few times now, and I still don't understand it.)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... but I did enjoy vinty's #117

[Prommer]

So I hear - e.g. woman no longer stripped naked (though being trailed as 'her choice'), and scene shortened. Perhaps the gun is not being used quite so graphically?

No doubt they just thought we can't have booing on the broadcast or transmitted to the cinemas. No point of principle at all (in any direction), just brute commercial logic.

It is pretty dreadful, all this non-apologetic apologising coming from Kasper Holten etc, and then not offering a refund but saying (after people have bought tickets) that at least there is now a warning!

A pretty dismal episode. I imagine someone on the board has had to step in and say enough is enough. Hence the open letter from all three of them - Beard, Pappano and Holten.

Must be a squeaky bum moment every night - will there be booing or not? I do wonder what Pappano really thinks.. Having people shout 'Shame on you Tony' (not even including the Sir) must take the gilt off the ginger bread.

[french frank]

But isn't everyone here agreed that the production has managed to "convey its message"?

It's now become impossible to say - since the message/explanations/apologias have been instantly forthcoming.

What those who dislike this production seem to be arguing is that the message is being imposed upon the work, not emerging from it?

Another factor - and again, that isn't to do with what an individual's response may be - 'distasteful', or 'thought-provoking' ... &c.

If the "conveyancing" is clear to most people - does that make it 87.4% successful?

As in "gratuitous nudity and violence" - that message, do you mean?

(And how does the sentence I've quoted match with Beethoven's "production", the Great Fugue? Can that be described as not 100% successful because it "only manages to convey its message to an enlightened, broad-minded few"?)

A composition lives on and is experienced for as long as people listen: views may change, broaden. A live opera performance doesn't have that time to impose itself, in this case 4(?) hours. Talking about it afterwards isn't the same experience.

There is the question, of course, that one controversial scene eclipses all the excellent qualities of the production; or, alternatively as some critics would have it, does it paper over the deficiencies, music notwithstanding, that it wasn't a very good production in other respects? I pose the question, merely.

[Conchis]

(By the way, I've read Conchis' #118 a few times now, and I still don't understand it.)

With reference to 'sweet girl(s) on the podium'.

http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/355307,vasily-petrenko-under-fire-for-remarks-on-women-conductors.aspx

[jean]

(By the way, I've read Conchis' #118 a few times now, and I still don't understand it.)

It was an ill-considered reference to Vasily Petrenko's ill-considered comments on the disruptive effects of women in the workplace.

A bit like Tim Hunt's, except that Vasily didn't lose his position over them. Fortunately

.

[Stanfordian]

Back to the thread. I've decided to attend the Odeon cinema live relay of William Tell on Sunday.

[Conchis]

A bit like Tim Hunt's, except that Vasily didn't lose his position over them. Fortunately

.

Nor did Tim Hunt. He resigned.

[Flosshilde]

Nor did Tim Hunt. He resigned.

Did he jump or was he pushed? I don't think he resigned because he wasn't interested in the job any more.

[jean]

He was pushed, though not by angry feminists.

[MrGongGong]

Back to the thread. I've decided to attend the Odeon cinema live relay of William Tell on Sunday.

So I hear - e.g. woman no longer stripped naked (though being trailed as 'her choice'), and scene shortened.

Not everyone sees nudity as such a big deal
If the part was cast with this planned then the idea that someone would choose to audition for it then object is laughable
It's not as if nudity is a new thing in theatre (or even opera)

[Flosshilde]

He was pushed, though not by angry feminists.

As I thought. There's more than one way of losing your position.

[Flosshilde]

It's not as if nudity is a new thing in theatre (or even opera)

No - I think Maria Ewing caused quite a stir as Salome, & it was her husband who had her stripping off!

[aeolium]

Not everyone sees nudity as such a big deal
If the part was cast with this planned then the idea that someone would choose to audition for it then object is laughable
It's not as if nudity is a new thing in theatre (or even opera)

It's not just nudity though, is it? It's the graphic and protracted representation of a gang-rape, as I understand it. And even if the opera libretto explicitly called for it - which in this case it does not - I would seriously question the director's motives for such a portrayal. The supposed justification is that it is a representation of the horrors of war. But does this need to be so explicit? Everyone in that audience would have known that war is often, perhaps usually, accompanied by rape, that unspeakable scenes have been, are being enacted for real on an almost daily basis. Moreover, many of them will have seen representations of rape on screen, in either film or on primetime TV, especially since rape has almost become a dramatic cliche for all kinds of TV drama, not merely crime series. In my view, the portrayal of rape has become far too easy a fall-back for (mostly male) screenwriters and directors, particularly as it can all too easily fall into the realm of pornography, almost as if rape is being normalised for desensitised audiences. It is exceptionally difficult for this as a theme to be treated sensitively and in a way that puts the act in context, namely the trauma that may last a lifetime. In this, to me it resembles the representation of torture or child abuse, both all too common realities yet extremely difficult to represent dramatically.

Still, I'm just a man saying this, and I have not even seen the production. How about reading the reaction of a woman who did see it - at least in dress rehearsal?

http://slippedisc.com/2015/06/the-singers-tale-i-was-sobbing-and-shaking-in-william-tell/

I'd be interested in reading the views of others on how rape is and should be represented on the stage or on screen, but I am always deeply suspicious of the motives of those who choose to exhibit it protractedly and graphically.

I shan't be going to the cinema relay of this production on Sunday. I feel fortunate to have seen the WNO production last year in which quite a different solution was adopted, namely the use of dancers to represent both sexual passion and affection in the first act and oppressive violence and subjugation in the third. The production relied on something that this director is possibly reluctant to encourage - the audience's imagination.

[french frank]

aeolium's comments tie back to what I was saying about classical drama - no violence on stage. People didn't need to see it to experience 'pity and fear' and there were alternative ways of presenting violent acts. Is the message now that human beings have become so evolved (= brutalised?) that they only feel or understand if there's a realistic portrayal?