ROH 'William Tell'

[teamsaint]

Care to expand on that?

Bach on the piano?

How many 'wrong' notes do I have to play for a piece to loose it's identity?

How 'robust' are musical works?

This is a subject much discussed by musicologists (but not in here it would seem)

I'm sure, ( well hopeful anyway) there would be plenty of discussion on this board on the point (s) that you mention, if you would open the debate, and perhaps, as a professional well versed in such matters, offer a few pointers to fruitful areas for discussion.

[MrGongGong]

I'm sure, ( well hopeful anyway) there would be plenty of discussion on this board on the point (s) that you mention, if you would open the debate, and perhaps, as a professional well versed in such matters, offer a few pointers to fruitful areas for discussion.

I'm fascinated by this and it is at the heart of how we think about music
but I usually sit on the side while my academic ('real' ones not Ruperts chums ) talk about it with extensive references .... (i'll see if I can dig a few things out)

[teamsaint]

I'm fascinated by this and it is at the heart of how we think about music
but I usually sit on the side while my academic ('real' ones not Ruperts chums ) talk about it with extensive references .... (i'll see if I can dig a few things out)

You can wing it,if anybody can, F'sure.......

referencing , though..................

[MrGongGong]

You can wing it,if anybody can, F'sure.......

At a music conference maybe
but not in a room full of pedantic linguists

This

I paid to see Guillueme Tell

(my bold)

Is a starting point for interesting discussion IMV

Those of us who create music are frequently asked to say things about it months (sometimes years) before it even exists.
How does one describe something which is essentially 'non-linguistic' in a way that will encourage people to come and experience it?
Are the folks who PAID to see Kanye West at Glastonbury equally entitled to complain about the £?

and so on ....

[Flosshilde]

Your use of "fossilised" is emotive. ... desecration.

'Desecration' isn't emotive? To suggest that something has been desecrated is to suggest that it's a holy relic, that nobody is allowed to touch it.

seeing the original.

What does 'original' mean in this context?

[Giacomo]

'Desecration' isn't emotive?

It is; I'm cross.

To suggest that something has been desecrated is to suggest that it's a holy relic, that nobody is allowed to touch it.

Sacred yes. Relic no.

'What does 'original' mean in this context?

Repeated for the slow learners: following the libretto.

[MrGongGong]

Repeated for the slow learners: following the libretto.

That doesn't make it 'original' IMV

So exactly HOW prescriptive is the libretto?

Do you object to female actors in Shakespeare?

Can one 'desecrate' an opera?

[Flosshilde]

Isn't there a rather famous stage direction in Shakespeare 'Exit, pursued by a bear'?

[Richard Tarleton]

Closer to (your) home, Flossie, there's a bear in Act 1 Scene 1 of Siegfried.

[MrGongGong]

Closer to (your) home, Flossie, there's a bear in Act 1 Scene 1 of Siegfried.

So I guess some people would Boo if it wasn't a 'real' bear then?

(and we can leave "sir" Cliff out of it, OK )

[Richard Tarleton]

(and we can leave "sir" Cliff out of it, OK )

You've lost me there Mr GG

[french frank]

How many 'wrong' notes do I have to play for a piece to loose it's identity?

I hope there would be none, Gongers, but - an interesting analogy.

If you perform a work and play a lot (as in, a *lot*) of wrong notes as if you were the worse for drink, it may still be recognisable. But it would be a BAD performance.

[MrGongGong]

I hope there would be none, Gongers, but - an interesting analogy.

If you perform a work and play a lot (as in, a *lot*) of wrong notes as if you were the worse for drink, it may still be recognisable. But it would be a BAD performance.

Indeed

But (and this is exactly the sort of thing that those who make "sound based" as opposed to "note based" musics have to grapple with) what exactly is it that gives "THE WORK" it's identity?

The rhythm, the notes, something else?
If it is the combination, how are the various elements balanced?
and
What role does "nostalgia" play?

If I have a brush and the head wears out ..... etc etc

[Serial_Apologist]

Indeed

But (and this is exactly the sort of thing that those who make "sound based" as opposed to "note based" musics have to grapple with) what exactly is it that gives "THE WORK" it's identity?

The rhythm, the notes, something else?
If it is the combination, how are the various elements balanced?
and
What role does "nostalgia" play?

If I have a brush and the head wears out ..... etc etc

Under capitalism? Saleability as commodity.

[french frank]

what exactly is it that gives "THE WORK" it's identity?

That moves your analogy away from the subject under discussion I don't think anyone was saying that the opera had become unrecognisable.

However, there were two points which the ROH management made to justify the current production which were at best questionable, at worst plain wrong.

1. They said that there was justification in the libretto. There wasn't. The 'violence' which outraged the villagers was the solders forcing them to dance. (An alternative reference, possibly, to rape mentioned by LHC indicated exactly the 'classical' convention for representing a violent act: Leuthold appears with a blood-stained axe and explains what he has done - we don't see the act. Did this production show Leuthold hacking the malefactor to death?

2. Kasper Holten stated that Rossinini 'had chosen' the themes of war and oppression and he 'wanted to make a statement'. Most unlikely on the evidence. Rossini in 1829 was not the Verdi of the Risorgimento. A struggle for independence, as aeolium argued, is not 'war' as we understand it (especially in Bosnia) and what evidence is there that Rossini wanted to 'make a statement' rather than tell the tale of a Swiss hero, courage, and romantic and parental love?

Michieletto was the one who wanted to 'make the statement'. I wouldn't say that isn't allowable: but pretending that that was anything to do with what Rossini intended is dishonest. In my opinion.