ROH Idomeneo: I'm so glad audiences are starting to bite back at daft productions

[aeolium]

However, if the cheerers' approval overrides the silence of the discontented, then doesn't this mean that the production has succeeded with the majority of the audience? In other words, the director hasn't merely "shocked for the sake of shocking", but has produced a staging in which most of the audience perceives merit? In which case, isn't it simply childish bad manners (and downright discourteous to the rest of the audience) to boo? What is this? Strictly Come Mozart?

Of course the cheerers' approval will appear to override the silence of the discontented because the latter are silent. As Caliban suggests, silence is a pretty ineffective way of expressing disapproval. Why is it bad manners and "downright discourteous" to the rest of the audience to boo? It is not the audience that is being booed but the director of the production, and those expressing disapproval are expressing an opinion just as the cheerers are.

I don't think, from what you have said on other similar threads, that you have ever experienced the intense frustration and irritation that comes from witnessing a performance that is musically excellent but is ruined by a misconceived production. There is no response, for someone who feels like this, that is really effective: leaving early (which I have done occasionally); writing to the opera company (a bit like writing to Feedback); not bothering to go along to the next production, which several here have admitted to - that just makes it harder for the company in that they are losing core audience in straitened times. I agree that booing is unsatisfactory, but I'm sure that it is largely an instinctive response.

Opera is incredibly time-consuming and expensive to put on. When it all works, it can be really exhilarating for all concerned including the audience. I agree with gurnemanz that traditional productions can fail just as Regietheater ones can, but I want the director to have thought through his/her ideas - preferably with the music director - and to have come up with a production that goes with the grain of libretto/music and not against it, whatever costumes, sets, period are used.

[Flosshilde]

the intense frustration and irritation that comes from witnessing a performance that is musically excellent but is ruined by a misconceived production.

What about a production that is simply dull (which could be a 'traditional' one or a 'modern' one)? Is it reasonable to boo that?

[aeolium]

What about a production that is simply dull (which could be a 'traditional' one or a 'modern' one)? Is it reasonable to boo that?

I suppose booing comes from a powerful emotional reaction which a dull production probably wouldn't produce - it would just result in a bored, or indifferent response.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Booing is something that I think is only appropriate at a pantomime. It is correct to suggest that I have never experienced an opera (or theatre) production in which I thought the staging so misconceived that I have found it ruinous, frustrating or irritating. I have more frequently encountered singers who have fulfilled all three criteria, but I would never dream of booing them when they take their curtain call - I just stop applauding.

The suggestion that the cheers of a minority of approvers can "appear to override the silence of the discontented" doesn't make mathematical sense - there has to be a substantial number of approvers for this to happen - or a small minority of discontented. (Just as it doesn't work the other way, either - otherwise it could be claimed that the booers are a noisy minority overriding the applause of the contented.) And no opera comapny can afford to lose substantial numbers of their audience: if significant numbers of a potential core audience are "not bothering to go along to the next production" there must be a different audience paying for tickets to take their place. It's not Radio 3, with funding from a Licence Fee and RAJAR figures showing declining audience numbers - it's a business, admitedly subsidised from the public purse, but one which could not continue without box office returns.

There probably doesn't seem like there is a "response ... that is really effective": but booing is itself one of those ineffective responses.

[aeolium]

I think there is a big danger to the survival of opera - or at least particular opera companies - from the alienation of their core audience, just as there is another risk from falling back on the usual popular operas. It's especially the case with reduced public funding for companies all over Europe, but companies all over the world have been struggling (e.g. New York City Opera, San Diego Opera, ENO, Scottish Opera, opera houses in Rome, Verona and Berlin to name a few). I suspect the ROH has lost some of those discontented with the Idomeneo production for future productions. For my own part, I steer clear of productions by directors for whom I have a low opinion, notably Kaspar Holten who is now in charge at the ROH.

I think there is some parallel with another area in which a core audience has been progressively alienated - namely the R3 audience. Ultimately people just stop listening, or listen much more infrequently. R3 is of course much better insulated against this decline in that it has a guaranteed source of income (for the time being, and even though it has shrunk in recent years). But opera companies really are dependent on the support of those who are most enthusiastic about it, and if those enthusiasts become disenchanted then the future is bleak indeed.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - I had addressed that point:

no opera comapny can afford to lose substantial numbers of their audience: if significant numbers of a potential core audience are "not bothering to go along to the next production" there must be a different audience paying for tickets to take their place. It's not Radio 3, with funding from a Licence Fee and RAJAR figures showing declining audience numbers - it's a business, admitedly subsidised from the public purse, but one which could not continue without box office returns.

Is there any evidence of declining audience numbers to support concern for the future of opera companies (as there are RAJAR figures that demonstrate this for R3?) - or, for that matter, evidence that a different body of "enthusiasts" is replacing the old guard? If not, neither opinion can be anything much beyond the wishful thinking of those who hold them.

[kuligin]

. For my own part, I steer clear of productions by directors for whom I have a low opinion, notably Kaspar Holten who is now in charge at the ROH.

.

This is exactly wgat I do, after his wretched Eugene Onegin it would have to take a very positive review to attract me to see one of his productions and by the time the reviews come out it is usually to late to get tickets i can afford on days I can get to London.

I was so disillusioned by ENO in Handel after Partenope that I have avioided all baroque opera in that house including works I was very keen to see

I dont object to updating etc if it stays true to the opera, although generally a straight forward production gives far greater pleasure, I prefer the moon to turn red in Wozzeck, or at least for Wozzeck and Andres to be out of doors when gathering wood but I will not put up with whole cast being tied up in elastoplast

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/opera/3663594/Not-just-spitting-in-the-soup-but-making-a-hash-of-the-main-course.html

[aeolium]

The picture for opera companies is mixed and it is nothing like as clear as the statistics on radio listening provided by RAJARs. There are many reasons why many opera companies may be struggling and the main reason must be the current recession, together with falling public subsidy and in some cases falling numbers of subscribers (in the US). For instance here ENO had only 71% capacity in the 2011-2012 financial year, which partly accounted for their £2.2 million loss. In the US, the Met only had 69% box office sales for 2012, New York City Opera has filed for bankruptcy, and San Francisco Opera reports a decline in subscriber numbers from 165,000 in 1980 to an estimated 93,000 for 2015. There is some evidence for declining audience numbers but the reasons for this may be complex and hard to unravel. But I think there are grounds for concern about the future of opera companies (David Pountney's recent address for the WNO which I linked to on another thread alludes to it) and it is certainly not "wishful thinking" on my part to refer to it - I wish rather that opera companies should flourish.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You're right; "wishful thinking" is a clumsily inprecise expression. But are these declining audience numbers caused by production standards that don't match what the audience is expecting to see? Are there really so many "outlandish" productions at the Met? Is the repertoire in San Fransisco comparable between 1980 and 2015? Would attendances return to earlier, higher numbers if there was a declaration "Tights Not Rubber Sharks from now on"? Or, alternatively, is it the very absence of "traditional" stagings that is the only thing that is keeping the audience figures as "high" as they are? Are there enough people from 1980 around to maintain even a 70% Box Office return? Might not the brohaha surrounding this Idomeneo attract people who enjoy theatrical presentations but think that "Opera" is still done in tights?

And is booing really going to achieve the changes you believe desirable?

[aeolium]

Who knows the answer to any of those questions and how would one begin to seek one?

All I can say from my own experience and reading threads on the Opera sub-forum is that there are people who have been dissatisfied with a number of concept productions and have stayed away from other productions as a result. Yes, this is a tiny minority of opera-goers in this country and perhaps not at all representative - though you could equally say that those who complain about R3's Breakfast or Essential Classics are a small minority which may not be representative.

By your derogatory comments you clearly seem to think that those dissatisfied opera-goers are making a fuss about nothing and have really no valid reason for their dissatisfaction - just stick-in-the-muds. Yet were your own concerns about different issues to be treated with such contempt you would be the first to be up in arms. It doesn't make for a particularly fruitful discussion.

Exit (from the thread) pursued by a bear

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

By your derogatory comments you clearly seem to think that those dissatisfied opera-goers are making a fuss about nothing and have really no valid reason for their dissatisfaction - just stick-in-the-muds. Yet were your own concerns about different issues to be treated with such contempt you would be the first to be up in arms. It doesn't make for a particularly fruitful discussion.

Such interpretation of my comments may be clear to you, but does not stand up to what I have actually said on this and other Threads. Perhaps "wishful thinking" wasn't so far off the mark after all.

[underthecountertenor]

Indeed.

http://bachtrack.com/review-idomeneo-kusej-minkowski-royal-opera-november-2014

I'm happy to be in a minority when it's in company with Fiona Maddocks and Hugh Canning! Today's Observer:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/nov/09/idomeneo-royal-opera-martin-kusej-sally-beamish-equal-voices-review

and Hugh Canning in the Sunday Times (£):

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1479578.ece

I'm with you, FM and HC in the apparent minority. My only disagreement with your excellent review relates to Fagioli, whom I found (as did FM if I recall) weirdly constricted in his upper register and with very occluded diction compared to the rest of the cast. I thought his casting was a bit gimmicky: I suppose it's amazing that he can sing the role (see the Russian proverb about the dancing bear), but I have wonderful memories of Ann Murray in the role when the opera was last staged at the ROH (with Philip Langridge very moving in the title role), and I wish they'd cast a mezzo rather than a falsettist this time. It may not be quite Sarah Connolly's fach (it doesn't appear to be in her repertoire), but that's the sort of voice (and noble bearing) that I have in mind for the role.

[underthecountertenor]

Oh, and not for the first time Richard Morrison's Times review told us more about him than about the performance or the staging. What a self-satisfied, attention-seeking witless critic he is.

[underthecountertenor]

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...g-9845094.html

Tempted to go just to exercise my vocal chords....

They're cords, not chords.

[vinteuil]

They're cords, not chords.

... yours might be, matey - you ain't heard my throat-singing....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC9Qh709gas