Opera Production

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

No; it isn't "the same argument" at all - pay attention, Alpie minor!

So presumably it's OK to have Monteverdi's Orfeo with all the right instruments all played in the way they were in 1603, while on stage, Orfeo crosses the Styx on a hydrofoil driven by a punk rocker. When he arrives in Hades, they are all driving round on mobility scooters in order to resemble a 21st century hell...

I think not, but if a living composer were to set the modern version, that would be a different matter.

[doversoul1]

It's a view not a rule

Is it much the same thing as taste?

It is interesting how Noh theatre, or Kabuki for that matter, is thriving precisely because it is not re-contextualised.

[jean]

...Orfeo crosses the Styx on a hydrofoil driven by a punk rocker. When he arrives in Hades, they are all driving round on mobility scooters in order to resemble a 21st century hell...

No, because it's not Hell, it's the Elysian fields.

See the recent production I referred to in my earlier post.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

No, because it's not Hell, it's the Elysian fields.

See the recent production I referred to in my earlier post.

You are, as ever, quite right - the term "Hades" is often abused.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So presumably it's OK to have Monteverdi's Orfeo with all the right instruments all played in the way they were in 1603, while on stage, Orfeo crosses the Styx on a hydrofoil driven by a punk rocker. When he arrives in Hades, they are all driving round on mobility scooters in order to resemble a 21st century hell...

Yes - as I made clear in #22. (And I resent the reference to Eastbourne.)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes - as I made clear in #22. (And I resent the reference to Eastbourne.)

I was referring to Bridlington.

[MrGongGong]

Is it much the same thing as taste?

It is interesting how Noh theatre, or Kabuki for that matter, is thriving precisely because it is not re-contextualised.

Is that true ?
If so I would be very interested to know about it.
When I met Yoshikazu Iwamoto in the 1980's I discovered that one of the reasons why he came to the west was that no one in Japan was interested in the ancient Honkyoku that he was such an expert at.

There is (in my experience of going) a huge difference between Kabuki and Opera though.

[MrGongGong]

(And I resent the reference to Eastbourne.)

It was fine for Debussy (wholetone whistle)

[Master Jacques]

It is interesting how Noh theatre, or Kabuki for that matter, is thriving precisely because it is not re-contextualised.

That begs many questions: suffice it to say, that the last time I visited the Kabuki Theatre in Tokyo, they were revivifying the genre --- with a marvellous full-on Kabuki production of Twelfth Night , which featured that famously traditional Japanese carol, 'God Rest You Merry, Gentlemen' sung by a bunch of be-cassocked choirboys!! The word was, that this was the best thing the Kabuki had done for decades. Ninegawa was directing, so perhaps that was not wholly surprising.

[doversoul1]

Is that true ?
If so I would be very interested to know about it.
When I met Yoshikazu Iwamoto in the 1980's I discovered that one of the reasons why he came to the west was that no one in Japan was interested in the ancient Honkyoku that he was such an expert at.

There is (in my experience of going) a huge difference between Kabuki and Opera though.

You really can’t base an argument on (or form an opinion based on) an odd encounter with an individual who was most likely to be one of those people who felt they were not properly appreciated. He obviously didn’t explain to you what honkyoku was. There is no such thing as an expert in honkyoku, as the term simply means a work composed/created for a particular musical instrument.

Yes, kabuki and opera are different in many ways but they both have ‘the original’ and kabuki is as popular as ever because the original staging is largely maintained. There is no need to re-contextualise to appeal to modern audience. There are probably subtle ‘improvisations’ by the main actors but these are never explicit.

Originally Posted by Master Jacques
That begs many questions: suffice it to say, that the last time I visited the Kabuki Theatre in Tokyo, they were revivifying the genre --- with a marvellous full-on Kabuki production of Twelfth Night , which featured that famously traditional Japanese carol, 'God Rest You Merry, Gentlemen' sung by a bunch of be-cassocked choirboys!! The word was, that this was the best thing the Kabuki had done for decades. Ninegawa was directing, so perhaps that was not wholly surprising.

I mean kabuki. Not a modern theatre production that uses kabuki as a vehicle or media or whatever you may call it, acted by kabuki actors and performed in a (the) kabuki theatre. I suppose an imaginative choreographer could have morris dancers dance Swan Lake in a village green. You could call it a ballet but I don't think you can call it morris dance.

[Master Jacques]

I mean kabuki. Not a modern theatre production that uses kabuki as a vehicle or media or whatever you may call it, acted by kabuki actors and performed in a (the) kabuki theatre. I suppose an imaginative choreographer could have morris dancers dance Swan Lake in a village green. You could call it a ballet but I don't think you can call it morris dance.

I'm sorry, I was not being clear enough. This was Kabuki. It was performed absolutely in the Kabuki manner, by the resident company led by their biggest star, and responded to by the audience in the classic manner too (very different from our Western idea of how a theatre audience should react and behave). The reviews suggested that this was the best new play added to the Kabuki repertoire in decades!

It was divided into three equal parts absolutely according to the rulebook, and in every way conformed to the classic tradition. Yet they did not cut a word of Shakespeare's text either. Kabuki is by no means as "purist" as Noh, which might be what's confusing the issue here: Kabuki takes what it needs and wants from where it can find it. It always has, and always will. My point was that Japanese theatre traditions - not even Noh - are not so set in stone as myth has us believe.

And by the way, it had the most moving, funny and subtle Viola (male of course) that I have ever seen.

[MrGongGong]

You really can’t base an argument on (or form an opinion based on) an odd encounter with an individual who was most likely to be one of those people who felt they were not properly appreciated. He obviously didn’t explain to you what honkyoku was. There is no such thing as an expert in honkyoku, as the term simply means a work composed/created for a particular musical instrument.

Erm

I think you are very much mistaken.
Here's the superficial Wiki about the Shakuhachi repertoire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honkyoku

But maybe your knowledge of ethnomusicology is greater than Malm et al ?

Of course maybe Yoshikazu was making it all up ?

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/yoshikazu-iwamoto-mn0000591581/biography

[doversoul1]

Master Jacques

You were perfectly clear. That’s why I am saying that that is not kabuki. Sorry to repeat myself but the Ninagawa production (I believe it was performed in the UK) is a modern theatre production that extensively uses kabuki elements. Kabuki is not only a genre and the manner of performance but it also refers to an established body of works (libretto equivalent). Anything other than these works is kabuki-based or kabuki-inspired production and not kabuki.

Kabuki is by no means as "purist" as Noh […] Kabuki takes what it needs and wants from where it can find it. It always has, and always will. My point was that Japanese theatre traditions - not even Noh - are not so set in stone as myth has us believe.

Where tradition is concerned, Kabuki is just as purist as Noh. For one, kabuki actors are strictly hereditary. A son (not sure how they chose if there are more than one) is trained by father from a very young age in order to follow the exact tradition, which is probably one of the major attractions of kabuki: audience knows exactly what to expect, yet a good performance can still move the audience and offers something new.

The Ninagawa production was highly praised for the effective use of kabuki elements but it was never considered as a kabuki.

[doversoul1]

Erm

I think you are very much mistaken.
Here's the superficial Wiki about the Shakuhachi repertoire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honkyoku

But maybe your knowledge of ethnomusicology is greater than Malm et al ?

Of course maybe Yoshikazu was making it all up ?
http://www.allmusic.com/artist/yoshi...1581/biography

Erm…
http://kotobank.jp/word/%E6%9C%AC%E6%9B%B2

Sorry, I am being unfair. As your reference says, honkyoku means original pieces, therefore, there are naturally Shakuhachi honkyoku, and there are other works for shakuhachi players to perform. And there are honkyoku for other instruments. Your Mr Y probably meant that he did play music written for shakuhachi and not Danny Boy or Green Sleeves.

A Japanese shakuhachi player who does not have a Japanese website (I have checked) is, I’d say, more than a little suspicious. A bagpiper can be a big star in Japan even if he can only play one tune (I don’t mean this Mr Y is that bad but you get the picture).

[MrGongGong]

Erm…
http://kotobank.jp/word/%E6%9C%AC%E6%9B%B2

Sorry, I am being unfair. As your reference says, honkyoku means original pieces, therefore, there are naturally Shakuhachi honkyoku, and there are other works for shakuhachi players to perform. And there are honkyoku for other instruments.

A Japanese shakuhachi player who does not have a Japanese website (I have checked) is, I’d say, more than a little suspicious. A bagpiper can be a big star in Japan even if he can only play one tune (I don’t mean this Mr Y is that bad but you get the picture).

Yoshikazu appears to have vanished but is far from suspicious. Almost all of the players in the UK were taught by him.
And anyone who makes an album with John Tilbury and Eddie Prevost is hardly likely to be a fake !


Can you give me an example of a non Shakuhachi Honkyoku piece ?
I'm perfectly aware that there are other pieces but never come across the term relating to music other than the Shakuhachi repertoire.
BUT my point was more that at the time he left Japan it was hard to make a living playing the traditional music as (which a cursory glance at any Western Orchestra will show) Western Classical music was seen to be more what people wanted. I have heard that this is also true in other cultures as well.