But isn't all opera twaddle? I was asked.

[LMcD]

"Probably the greatest musical ever composed" - Andrew Marr's description of "Orgy with Bess" while introducing this morning's closing act to his show. A musical??

'Orgy with Bess' - is that 'Porgy and Bess' without its overture?
And if AM really thinks it's a musical, I would suggest that 'Cabaret' is its equal.

[cloughie]

'Orgy with Bess' - is that 'Porgy and Bess' without its overture?
And if AM really thinks it's a musical, I would suggest that 'Cabaret' is its equal.

Life is a cabaret old chum!

[alywin]

Occasionally it works, and when it does the result can be marvellous. The ENO Rigoletto (Jonathan Miller) comes to mind, this was set in a New York 1950s Mafia context.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I couldn't find any other mentions of the production. It's a long time (last century!) since I last saw this production, but I went again the other night, and I'm sure the wording for La donna e mobile has changed. I could have sworn that the first time I went the Duke sang "Women are wonderful - that's why we love them" - but this time it (courtesy of the supertitles) was "Women abandon us - that's why ..." and I can't remember what the rest of it was. It's a major change, if I'm right. Perhaps the old version was deemed too patronising?

[smittims]

'Women abandon us,that's why we need to re-think male violence' would be today's translation, I suppose. Is it the 'White Petal' promise,or something like that?

[oddoneout]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I couldn't find any other mentions of the production. It's a long time (last century!) since I last saw this production, but I went again the other night, and I'm sure the wording for La donna e mobile has changed. I could have sworn that the first time I went the Duke sang "Women are wonderful - that's why we love them" - but this time it (courtesy of the supertitles) was "Women abandon us - that's why ..." and I can't remember what the rest of it was. It's a major change, if I'm right. Perhaps the old version was deemed too patronising?

I thought the first line translation was "Women are fickle". I'm not an opera person but that aria appears often enough outside its setting that that translation has stuck in my mind. I imagine it would count as victim blaming which would necessitate a bit of alternative wording for today's sensibilities? But neither 'abandon' nor 'wonderful' strike me as satisfactory.

[Pulcinella]

I thought the first line translation was "Women are fickle". I'm not an opera person but that aria appears often enough outside its setting that that translation has stuck in my mind. I imagine it would count as victim blaming which would necessitate a bit of alternative wording for today's sensibilities? But neither 'abandon' nor 'wonderful' strike me as satisfactory.

I always thought of it as a woman being a piece of furniture, but that's probably an even worse concept these days,

https://www.wordreference.com/iten/mobile

[LMcD]

I thought the first line translation was "Women are fickle". I'm not an opera person but that aria appears often enough outside its setting that that translation has stuck in my mind. I imagine it would count as victim blaming which would necessitate a bit of alternative wording for today's sensibilities? But neither 'abandon' nor 'wonderful' strike me as satisfactory.

Denis Norden claimed that 'La donna e mobile' means 'my girl-friend's got a scooter'.

[LHC]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I couldn't find any other mentions of the production. It's a long time (last century!) since I last saw this production, but I went again the other night, and I'm sure the wording for La donna e mobile has changed. I could have sworn that the first time I went the Duke sang "Women are wonderful - that's why we love them" - but this time it (courtesy of the supertitles) was "Women abandon us - that's why ..." and I can't remember what the rest of it was. It's a major change, if I'm right. Perhaps the old version was deemed too patronising?

I think you must have misheard or misremembered the words from when you first saw this production. I have a copy of the recording from 1984 which was released on CD in 1988 and includes a booklet which provides James Fenton's translation in full. The words he supplied for la donna e mobile are:

Women abandon us
Why should it hurt them
if we desert them...
When it's all over?
Women make fools of us
Laugh in our faces
cover their traces...
take a new lover.
Women are liars,
cunning little demons -
What is a woman?
Why should men care?

These are still the words being used (I also saw the production for the umpteenth time earlier this week) so ENO hasn't changed the translation at all. Fenton's words are also much closer to a literal translation of La donna e mobile than your much more gallant alternative of "Women are wonderful".

I suppose its possible that the Duke you heard the first time might have sung "Women are wanderers", which could sound like women are wonderful?

[Master Jacques]

I think you must have misheard or misremembered the words from when you first saw this production. I have a copy of the recording from 1984 which was released on CD in 1988 and includes a booklet which provides James Fenton's translation in full. The words he supplied for la donna e mobile are:

Women abandon us
Why should it hurt them
if we desert them...
When it's all over?
Women make fools of us
Laugh in our faces
cover their traces...
take a new lover.
Women are liars,
cunning little demons -
What is a woman?
Why should men care?

These are still the words being used (I also saw the production for the umpteenth time earlier this week) so ENO hasn't changed the translation at all. Fenton's words are also much closer to a literal translation of La donna e mobile than your much more gallant alternative of "Women are wonderful".

Thank you very much for the James Fenton version, which is interesting to read in the context of the recent (eternal!) "Opera in English" debate. To my mind, it is a failed translation, because it misses the point of what text and music are there to do at this point - and this despite (or perhaps rather because) of Fenton's literary felicity.

The original words ('Woman is fickle, like a feather on the wind...') are intentionally written as lightweight sex-battle cliché, a popular song sung by a shallow egotist, with the irony that one of these "fickle women" is listening, and about to die a horrible death to save his worthless, frivolous life. There's no way that Fenton's undoubtedly clever literary tour de force can reflect what's happening in Verdi's music drama. It's too strong, too individualistic, and too acid.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Thank you very much for the James Fenton version, which is interesting to read in the context of the recent (eternal!) "Opera in English" debate. To my mind, it is a failed translation, because it misses the point of what text and music are there to do at this point - and this despite (or perhaps rather because) of Fenton's literary felicity.

The original words ('Woman is fickle, like a feather on the wind...') are intentionally written as lightweight sex-battle cliché, a popular song sung by a shallow egotist, with the irony that one of these "fickle women" is listening, and about to die a horrible death to save his worthless, frivolous life. There's no way that Fenton's undoubtedly clever literary tour de force can reflect what's happening in Verdi's music drama. It's too strong, too individualistic, and too acid.

The translation of this that sticks in my mind perhaps more than any other even though I’ve never heard it is:

“Wayward as Thistledown
Tossed on the summer’s breeze “

…it’s more rhythmically accurate than most…

[smittims]

But is it biologically accurate?

[Ein Heldenleben]

But is it biologically accurate?

If we are talking infidelity I am sure you are perfectly aware of the answer.

[Master Jacques]

The translation of this that sticks in my mind perhaps more than any other even though I’ve never heard it is:

“Wayward as Thistledown
Tossed on the summer’s breeze “

…it’s more rhythmically accurate than most…

A production I directed featured

"Woman's a weathervane,
constantly changing"

... which is at least smoothly phrased, while (like your preferred version) also retaining the wind metaphor. I can't remember how it went on, but doubtless it had "ranging" to rhyme with "changing"!