Singin' in forrin

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Stanley Stewart
    Late Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 1071

    #16
    I've deliberately avoided this thread so far as I suspected an outbreak of pedantry in the early stages. I'm certainly not a singer but did engage over 15 years on the boards as a thesp!

    'Communication' instantly speaks to me, alongside an indication of the composer's 'intention' but principally a personal sense of emotional truth is also paramount in performance. I've just been listening to the recent release of Winterreise with Jonas Kaufmann/Helmut Deutsch, Sony, and need time to savour such a nuanced performance, not in the sense of BAL but measured alongside the recordings on my shelves: DF-D, and two Peter's, Schreier and Pears, and I've long possessed the Jon Vickers 'experience' on LP and CD!

    The CD liner notes, translated by Stewart Spencer, include an interview between Thomas Voigt and Messrs Kaufmann and Deutsch, headed "You can't simply carry on as usual afterwards".

    J K "...But when I'm standing onstage in the evening and slip into a role
    every kind of rationality vanishes. I immerse myself in this alternative
    world to such an extent that I think I am the person in question and that
    this is my situation and my feelings. Performing Winterreise isn't so very
    different from singing an operatic role. I know that in this context people
    always ask the question whether lieder singing isn't about observing and
    reporting things objectively rather than feeling and sharing an emotion
    subjectively. This may be true of many works, but as far as Schubert is
    concerned, I continue to hold the view that it is quite simply impossible to
    provide an objective account. Anyone who claims to be able to sing this cycle
    objectively is deluding himself. It's like the Evangelist in the St John Passion:
    Bach has written it in such a way that the singer simply has to nail his colours
    to the mast and reveal his own feelings..."

    Quite. I was stimulated by Kaufmann's thoughts and recall the wind of change, re performance, as long ago as the 1960s when, as the new kids on the block, we began to investigate a change to plasticity in performance v stand and deliver normality. Yes, I simplify, of course. In short, for the first time ever, I was intrigued by the merger between the Lied and Opera performances at this year's Cardiff Singer of the World, a dovetailing towards refinement. I've subsequently checked a DVD recording of the Finals and a new dawn is evident. I hope I'm on the right track but sense that a fundamental change is already in the offing. It's certainly bearing fruit in the theatre and cinema. Only a theory but perhaps, in the early 1950s, the arrival and development of TV technique with its need for intimacy and 'less is more' may provide a few clues in this quest.

    Comment

    • Mary Chambers
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 1963

      #17
      Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
      As I understand it there is one very big split in 'standard' German pronunciation between north and south. It concerns the 'ch' in mich, dich, milch etc. The north favours a soft sound close to our 'sh', but the south goes for something harder like Scots 'loch'.

      Singers doing the 'wrong' pronunciation can upset German audiences: IIRC one way is seen as more 'proper', 'BBC German' than the other in most parts of Germany but I've forgotten which.
      That's interesting. My German teacher came from Vienna, so I suppose I speak vaguely Austrian. Have no idea! I was taught the 'loch' version, I think, but have now modified it to something in between.

      Comment

      • Mary Chambers
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 1963

        #18
        Originally posted by Stanley Stewart View Post

        'Communication' instantly speaks to me, alongside an indication of the composer's 'intention' but principally a personal sense of emotional truth is also paramount in performance.
        I agree, and I agree with what Kaufmann says as well. The idea of 'objective' lieder singing is alarming - though I suppose a certain amount of objective consideration of technique is necessary to achieve the communication.

        I always feel irritated by the attitude, common among the less good amateur choirs, that feeling emotion is enough on it own. It takes technique as well to put it across to the audience. I remember reading a comment, from a choir member, about Peter Pears singing the central recits in Messiah: "He couldn't have truly been feeling what he was conveying, because if he had been, he wouldn't have been able to sing."

        Sorry, getting off-topic.

        Comment

        • Lento
          Full Member
          • Jan 2014
          • 646

          #19
          I remember a famous critic taking a singer to task for pronouncing the German word "der" as "dair", which was exactly as all my schoolteachers taught us to say it. Very puzzling.

          Comment

          • jean
            Late member
            • Nov 2010
            • 7100

            #20
            Were your teachers German? Did they model it for you?

            Even if they were and they did, I suspect we do not notice the 'e' in German as distinctly different from our own versions of 'e', because we have no need to in English. For us, it's not a minimal pair with anything else.

            .
            Last edited by jean; 24-02-14, 13:08.

            Comment

            • Hautboiste

              #21
              As a Welsh speaker living in England in my schooldays I was acutely embarrassed when the German teacher kept asking me to demonstrate the more or less correct pronunciation of ich because i was the only person in the class to whom such a sound came naturally.

              Comment

              • jean
                Late member
                • Nov 2010
                • 7100

                #22
                My Polish students experienced much the same thing when they went to Wales - their hosts assumed they wouldn't be able to cope with the pronunciation of Welsh, but of course they could!

                Comment

                • Lento
                  Full Member
                  • Jan 2014
                  • 646

                  #23
                  Originally posted by jean View Post
                  higher in the mouth than any pronunciation of e in our repertoire.
                  And then there's the business of the final unaccented e being enunciated in French rhyme/song unlike in everyday parlance, as famously lampooned by the late Kenneth Williams.

                  Comment

                  • Eine Alpensinfonie
                    Host
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 20575

                    #24
                    I wish every potential woodwind player were to spend the first few years of their lives in Scotland. Then they would be able to flutter-tongue.

                    Comment

                    • Flosshilde
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 7988

                      #25
                      The mind boggles! What have you been up to on your visits north?

                      Comment

                      • Eine Alpensinfonie
                        Host
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 20575

                        #26
                        If you roll your Rs, you can flutter tongue.

                        Comment

                        • gurnemanz
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 7414

                          #27
                          My attitude is maybe strange. Sometimes I get worried by English singers doing Lieder really well and getting commendably close to authentic diction, enunciation and pronunciation but remaining for me at least tantalisingly short of being genuinely idiomatic. I actually once had a letter published in Gramophone which regretted that the Hyperion Complete Schubert Edition had rather too many non-native speakers for my liking.

                          On the other hand, sometimes I am not put off by foreign singers with genuinely not very authentic accents who manage to put the songs across so seductively that all criticism is disarmed. I'm talking here eg about Vesselina Kasarova whom some dislike in Lieder but I adore.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X