Singin' in forrin

[Lento]

With the extremely useful availability of online texts and translations, listening to Lieder etc on the radio has become much more rewarding, I find. One slight downside for me has been the highlighting of the strange pronunciation of foreign words that sometimes afflicts singers. I'm no linguist, but German seems to elicit the most anomalies so far for me, though I don't doubt that other languages can also cause noticeable problems. A few minor examples occurred, I thought, in the otherwise beautiful rendition of 3 Strauss songs by Ruby Hughes in Live in Concert Sat 22nd Feb 7.30. I know singers are taught to take pronunciation very seriously, so suspect that it has something to do with the vagaries of diphthongs and the like. Or perhaps pronunciation is one of the first things to go when nerves strike!

[LeMartinPecheur]

Allowance has to be made for the physiological fact that some vowel sounds, long 'a's for example, get more and more difficult (sc. impossible) the higher the note.

Some singers of the same vocal range seem to cope better than others. It presumably depends on how high the note is in the singer's natural range, a matter of the physiology of the vocal chords, but there are probably other aspects of body 'architecture' that influence it. Also, singers are probably more skilful at 'faking': going for the nearest vowel that they can sing rather than settling for the easiest one to sing.

[french frank]

Allowance has to be made for the physiological fact that some vowel sounds, long 'a's for example, get more and more difficult (sc. impossible) the higher the note.

I think the same applies when English speakers are singing in English: I suspect we adapt our listening to that more naturally. And there are variations: is 'der', dair or deyr?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is there a single way of pronouncing German? And is it the same way that the poets used by composers pronounced the language? And is modern German pronunced the same way today as it was by the composers themselves in their own time?

Put another way, is a singer from London, seeking pronunciation advice from a native of Hamburg getting the best advice about how to sing Schubert's settings of Goethe? And if a singer has made a point of studying how Schumann pronounced Heine, and it's very different from how German is generally (if there is such a generality) pronounced today, should s/he pronounce it to conform to his/her audience's expectations or those of the composer?

Substitute French, Italian, Spanish, Russian and/or English as you will.

Just a few idle thoughts.

[Mary Chambers]

I think the same applies when English speakers are singing in English

It certainly does. I've heard English badly distorted by certain English singers in pursuit of what they consider a beautiful sound, and not only on high notes.

English singers generally aim at a sort of RP, Standard English, which has itself changed considerably over the years.. I don't know whether the exact equivalent exists in other languages.

[aeolium]

Is there a single way of pronouncing German? And is it the same way that the poets used by composers pronounced the language? And is modern German pronunced the same way today as it was by the composers themselves in their own time?

What about Mahler's Wunderhorn settings, for instance "Verlorne Müh"?

"Büble, wir wollen außre gehe!
Wollen wir? Unsere Lämmer besehe?
Komm', lieb's Büberle,
komm', ich bitt'!" etc

That can't be sung as High German

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It works both ways. Here is Gigli Singing The Lost Chord.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Is there a single way of pronouncing German? And is it the same way that the poets used by composers pronounced the language? And is modern German pronunced the same way today as it was by the composers themselves in their own time?

Put another way, is a singer from London, seeking pronunciation advice from a native of Hamburg getting the best advice about how to sing Schubert's settings of Goethe? And if a singer has made a point of studying how Schumann pronounced Heine, and it's very different from how German is generally (if there is such a generality) pronounced today, should s/he pronounce it to conform to his/her audience's expectations or those of the composer?

I doubt whether Schubert and Schumann could have cared less whether the singers were singing in an identical accent to themselves, just as long as they communicated. So in answer to your question, I would always opt for the former.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I doubt whether Schubert and Schumann could have cared less whether the singers were singing in an identical accent to themselves, just as long as they communicated. So in answer to your question, I would always opt for the latter.

But "communicated" what? This gets to the point of the OP - how necessary is "good" pronunciation? I've frequently encountered comments along the lines that some listeners are put off by Ferrier's German (or Baker's French, or Borg's English). It doesn't matter that much to me - the timbre of the voice is more my thing - but if accurate pronunciation is important, then don't the changes in local and historic dialects also matter?

I have no answers to my own questions - hence the "idle thoughts" comment - I'm interested in what others' opinions (particularly those for whom these things matter more than they do to me).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Ah, I see where you are coming from, fhg.

I regret that I made an error in my previous post, writing the word "latter" instead of "former". My view is that the words should, as far ash possible, communicate with today's audiences.

[kernelbogey]

When I first became interested in classical music in my teens, I disliked almost all vocal music. A major reason was the distortion by singers of (e.g.) English: for example, 'little' sung as 'leetle'. Back then, I hated it.

I notice this less these days, listening more to opera than to solo vocal music. I have remained very ambivalent to Tippett's A Child of Our Time because of the way that the 'Negro Spirituals' are sung.

R3 trots out from time to time Thomas Hampson singing traditional American folk songs in a concert voice (for example the one in which each verse ends 'fiddle-ai-dee' or some such): it just doesn't doesn't work.

(This may be slightly off central topic, but I felt like writing it .)

PS For a micro-second I had thought this thread was about Gene Kelly .

[Mary Chambers]

I think the accent matters a lot in works where the words are very important - lieder, song cycles. Probably my German isn't good enough to detect small inaccuracies of pronunciation in Schubert sung by non-German speaker, but I cringe at Britten sung in a 'foreign' accent, even though I defend to the death (well, almost) anyone's right to sing it. I also cringe at distortions of English text by certain English singers, whom I could name, but won't.

People in choirs are taught to sing with the same pronunciation, whatever their natural speech. It can be quite a shock to hear a choir boy speak 'offstage'!

In some operas, particularly Italian opera where vocal gymnastics are important, I think it matters less. If it's in Italian it would have to be pretty bad before I could tell, anyway.

[LeMartinPecheur]

As I understand it there is one very big split in 'standard' German pronunciation between north and south. It concerns the 'ch' in mich, dich, milch etc. The north favours a soft sound close to our 'sh', but the south goes for something harder like Scots 'loch'.

Singers doing the 'wrong' pronunciation can upset German audiences: IIRC one way is seen as more 'proper', 'BBC German' than the other in most parts of Germany but I've forgotten which.

[LeMartinPecheur]

English singers generally aim at a sort of RP, Standard English, which has itself changed considerably over the years.. I don't know whether the exact equivalent exists in other languages.

Not just English! I noticed in a recent local recital by Ailish Tynan that she sang Parry, Bridge, Britten, Mendelssohn (setting Byron auf Englisch!) in RP, reserving her natural Irish accent for Moeran's Folksongs from County Kerry. I think she also used it for Britten's Last Rose of Summer, no doubt on the good grounds that it's an Irish lyric and melody.

[jean]

And there are variations: is 'der', dair or deyr?

I don't think it's either exactly, because whatever the German accent, it's a sound we don't have - higher in the mouth than any pronunciation of e in our repertoire.