Live in Concert 30.01.14 - Maxwell Davies, Brahms, Walton

[EdgeleyRob]

Unbelievably, Previn's famous recording dates from 1966!

Despite the limited sonics it still packs one heck of a punch. Those that come close are Slatkin, Ashkenazy and Bryden Thomson.

I wouldn't want to be without the dark and intense Haitink reading too.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/jun99/walton.htm

[jayne lee wilson]

Interpretationally, not Previn 76 (or whenever it was) vintage, but visceral playing (Phil Cobb, trumpet and Nigel Thomas timps 1 in particular) by the LSO.

Pappano was batonless which, to the armchair critic, might seem an interesting choice in such supremely rhythmical stuff. There were a few untidy entries from the strings, and a spare pizzicato somewhere, but this seemed to be the result of everyone going for it. Absolutely no sign of another day at the office.

If the 1st movement had been 10% faster it would have been even better...

The broadcast must have compressed the close considerably. Full blast from the LSO is a big sound and they gave it.

Fair enough Simon - I had the feeling (from those early peaks) it would be physically exciting in the flesh (well, in the hall, wind & brass)... but would you agree that it wasn't quite "polished", as you seem to imply? The 1st movement didn't quite "build" properly did it? From the viewpoint of pace, momentum, dynamics. (It is fiendishly difficult to play, in detail and as a totality). If everyone "goes for it" (as they do on the Previn recording, but with such easy PANACHE) surely you can still have the discipline - 100%. I only heard that intermittently tonight - felt it needed more rehearsal time. But those R3 level-shifts (only a feature of FM normally, not usually so overt on HDs - the previous night's BBCSO relay (q.v.) was excellent, very transparent, dynamic AND stable) really do fox one's concentration, so...

[edashtav]

It seemed as if Tony was teasing us in the first movement of the symphony. With tension and atmosphere feverishly high, each successive climax turned out to be ever so slightly softcentred after all. There was no coming back after that.

Absolutely right, Alison, Pappano replaced kernels of grit with marshmallow. Bathetic.

[Simon B]

Fair enough Simon - I had the feeling (from those early peaks) it would be physically exciting in the flesh (well, in the hall, wind & brass)... but would you agree that it wasn't quite "polished", as you seem to imply? The 1st movement didn't quite "build" properly did it? From the viewpoint of pace, momentum, dynamics. (It is fiendishly difficult to play, in detail and as a totality). If everyone "goes for it" (as they do on the Previn recording, but with such easy PANACHE) surely you can still have the discipline - 100%. I only heard that intermittently tonight - felt it needed more rehearsal time. But those R3 level-shifts (only a feature of FM normally, not usually so overt on HDs - the previous night's BBCSO relay (q.v.) was excellent, very transparent, dynamic AND stable) really do fox one's concentration, so...

Jayne - yes, not quite "polished" in terms of a few slips of ensemble is fair. Likewise, there wasn't quite the cumulation of tension across the whole 1st movement finally released at the end. In simple terms it seemed to get faster, pick up a gear generally, towards the end without the consistent journey to get there. Of course, when "in the moment" of a live performance, the physical impact of the sound and the virtuosity happening before you often leads to a more positive reaction.

The point you made earlier about it being a better piece than it can be played (at least live) was well-made. It is, as you say, fiendishly difficult at times, particularly the plentiful passages which require, say, the entire string section to execute complex rhythms, in unison, with fierce attack if it is to register properly. I've never heard a live performance that didn't have the odd blurred edge, only studio recordings.

Ferretfancy has, on the "Your Last Concert" thread independently made the same point as me about the LSO being further forward out into the hall last night on a stage extension and how that made things sound so much clearer in the auditorium. I stand by my theory that this probably foxed the engineers accustomed to dealing with the usual setup in the Barbican and making it sound half-decent on air.

[Ferretfancy]

Jayne - yes, not quite "polished" in terms of a few slips of ensemble is fair. Likewise, there wasn't quite the cumulation of tension across the whole 1st movement finally released at the end. In simple terms it seemed to get faster, pick up a gear generally, towards the end without the consistent journey to get there. Of course, when "in the moment" of a live performance, the physical impact of the sound and the virtuosity happening before you often leads to a more positive reaction.

The point you made earlier about it being a better piece than it can be played (at least live) was well-made. It is, as you say, fiendishly difficult at times, particularly the plentiful passages which require, say, the entire string section to execute complex rhythms, in unison, with fierce attack if it is to register properly. I've never heard a live performance that didn't have the odd blurred edge, only studio recordings.

Ferretfancy has, on the "Your Last Concert" thread independently made the same point as me about the LSO being further forward out into the hall last night on a stage extension and how that made things sound so much clearer in the auditorium. I stand by my theory that this probably foxed the engineers accustomed to dealing with the usual setup in the Barbican and making it sound half-decent on air.

One thing I also noticed was that the two "standard' stereo pairs were in their usual place hanging from the ceiling, but of course the orchestra as a whole were closer, this in itself would have affected the balance. It's always difficult to guess how much use the engineers would have made of the numerous spot mikes that were dotted around in the orchestra last night. To my mind, every additional microphone in the mix will alter the phase relationships, which is why so many modern recordings or broadcasts deliver a poor sense of place. The musicians simply don't sound as if they are all performing and hearing each other within a recognisable acoustic.

Of course, we are all being a little unrealistic if we imagine that it's really possible for any medium to deliver the musical clout of music like the Walton Symphony, however good our sound system, but at least the simulation should convince within its own terms.

[jayne lee wilson]

Oddly enough, Ferret-F, I've often used the Walton 1st when trying out hifi equipment (usually the stunning ENP/Daniel/Naxos, or the Previn - yes Pet., truly amazing from 1966!), it makes a great test piece for orchestral reproduction of rhythm, colour, dynamics etc. But usually it reproduces really well on systems from modest to highend, I've nearly always had pleasing results... there are only a few moments where it approaches the sustained density & intensity of some Bruckner or Mahler climaxes, especially with chorus - those really are challenging. Walton 1 seems made for hifi really!

I would emphasise that last night's disappointing webcast was very exceptional; since the advent of HDs AAC, I've become used to saying, "fine sound as usual" etc. As it was with the two recent BBCSO Beethoven + French concerts. Erica Jeal's review in the Guardian described the Barbican Bringuier Beethoven 4 as "suffering from thick, opaque textures and a sense of busyness" (!). Here at home I heard lightness, agility and transparency. I think I got the better deal.

I'm a little surprised at your complaint of modern recordings. The marvellous Skride/Storgards Schumann disc on Orfeo has a lovely fresh acoustical presence and I was pleased with the sense of space and place on recent JEG issues of the Missa Solemnis (Barbican) and Beethoven 5/7 (Carnegie). The BRSO/Kubelik Schumann (Munich Herkulesaal, 1978-9) has a a fine spiritus loci too. Not to mention any number of BIS, CPO or Da Capo releases...

[BBMmk2]

Surprisingly, this is the work I use for testing hi-fi's too! Looking forward toi this BaL!

[Ferretfancy]

Oddly enough, Ferret-F, I've often used the Walton 1st when trying out hifi equipment (usually the stunning ENP/Daniel/Naxos, or the Previn - yes Pet., truly amazing from 1966!), it makes a great test piece for orchestral reproduction of rhythm, colour, dynamics etc. But usually it reproduces really well on systems from modest to highend, I've nearly always had pleasing results... there are only a few moments where it approaches the sustained density & intensity of some Bruckner or Mahler climaxes, especially with chorus - those really are challenging. Walton 1 seems made for hifi really!

I would emphasise that last night's disappointing webcast was very exceptional; since the advent of HDs AAC, I've become used to saying, "fine sound as usual" etc. As it was with the two recent BBCSO Beethoven + French concerts. Erica Jeal's review in the Guardian described the Barbican Bringuier Beethoven 4 as "suffering from thick, opaque textures and a sense of busyness" (!). Here at home I heard lightness, agility and transparency. I think I got the better deal.

I'm a little surprised at your complaint of modern recordings. The marvellous Skride/Storgards Schumann disc on Orfeo has a lovely fresh acoustical presence and I was pleased with the sense of space and place on recent JEG issues of the Missa Solemnis (Barbican) and Beethoven 5/7 (Carnegie). The BRSO/Kubelik Schumann (Munich Herkulesaal, 1978-9) has a a fine spiritus loci too. Not to mention any number of BIS, CPO or Da Capo releases...

jayne

I'd better qualify! There are certainly many fine recordings being made today, as a matter of fact I've just been listening to exemplary sound in a release of Mozart piano concertos with Finghin Collins. What I dislike is the feeling that many modern versions of favourite works have a heavily mixed down quality, especially in the case of large scale works.The Petrenko Shostakovich with the RLPO is a case in point for me. Just compare the sound on his Shostakovich 8 with Decca's superb version with Haitink. I agree with you about consistently good labels like BIS, and it would be hard to better the sound that Chandos achieve in solo piano recordings.

Of course, it's easy to rhapsodise in a mist of nostalgia for recordings from the 1960s and 1970s, but session time was cheaper then, and I think that engineers were able to spend more time evaluating the hall possibilities to get what they wanted at the time, rather than use lots of mics and do post production as they are often forced to do today. It's also sad that a number of great recording venues have been lost.

[Boilk]

Moving this comment to correct Max thread !!!