BBC PO Strauss season

[Black Swan]

I was there and totally agree with both Stanfordian and EA. But now I am faced with the dilemma, I don't own a recording and which one do I buy.....

J

[Stanfordian]

I was there and totally agree with both Stanfordian and EA. But now I am faced with the dilemma, I don't own a recording and which one do I buy.....

J

Hiya Black Swan, In An Alpine Symphony you won’t go far wrong with either Herbert von Karajan with the Berliner Philharmoniker from 1980 on DG or Rudolf Kempe with the Staatskapelle Dresden from 1971 on EMI.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hiya Black Swan, In An Alpine Symphony you won’t go far wrong with either Herbert von Karajan with the Berliner Philharmoniker from 1980 on DG or Rudolf Kempe with the Staatskapelle Dresden from 1971 on EMI.

... Karajan (unique, I think, amongst the conductors who have recorded the work - other than the composer himself) was a lifelong mountaineer, but by the time he came to record the work, persistent back problems meant that those days were behind him. His experience and memories of his climbing experiences give his reading particular insights, which (together with his customary mastery of Strauss' scores) would make it my top recommendation if pressed to suggest just the one recording to have.

[Petrushka]

Hiya Black Swan, In An Alpine Symphony you won’t go far wrong with either Herbert von Karajan with the Berliner Philharmoniker from 1980 on DG or Rudolf Kempe with the Staatskapelle Dresden from 1971 on EMI.

To those two indispensable recordings I would add Christian Thielemann and the Wiener Philharmoniker on DG.

[Simon B]

The Alpine Symphony live is always "an event" and this was no exception - for me the most recent experience of it prior to last night was of Bernard Haitink and the Vienna Philharmonic at the Proms.

Many beautiful things in both, but heretical though it may be, I preferred the brass last night to the slightly scrawnier and splittier output of the authentic Viennese instruments. Particular plaudits were due to the 1st horn (Andrew Budden, BBCPO) for his perfectly controlled solos in the calm after the storm. Also to the 1st trumpet (Gareth Small, Halle) for the fearless nailing of every prominent entry and most especially for leading the whole orchestra at times by blazing out Strauss's stratospheric top notes in a manner too seldom heard these days.

Only disappointment - what on earth happened to the wind machines? With 3 thundersheets there was clearly no skimping going on, plus we had 3 wind machines for Don Quixote a few days before, but last night no sign of them and not even a mild breeze to be heard. To leave them out for artistic reasons would seem a perverse conductorial decision, so surely not that? Otherwise a very fine performance.

Edit: Just listened to the Festival Prelude again on the iPlayer to cheer myself up as I'm still making up the work time I lost getting to Manchester yesterday. What a inducing racket!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I was there and totally agree with both Stanfordian and EA. But now I am faced with the dilemma, I don't own a recording and which one do I buy.....

J

My advice would be quite contrary to popular opinion on this forum. If you enjoyed last night's stunning performance, then avoid Karajan's like the plague. HvK made a large number of great recordings, but Eine Alpensinfonie just isn't one of them. It's run-of-the-mill in spirit, with some scrappy playing with uncharacteristic poor intonation from the Berlin Philharmonic, for which there can be little excuse. But the real villains are the recording team, whose efforts are close to being incompetent. The oppressive closeness of the violins throughout effectively ruin the beautifully thoughtful epilogue (track 21 on most recordings). Even the off-stage band is is glorious close-up.
It's only distinction is the fact that it was the first classical CD to be pressed (and I bought it). When compared with other CDs from this first batch of CD releases in 1983, this was clearly inferior and a huge disappointment. Don't be swayed by William Mival's selection of the Karajan in the 2011 BaL. It was an interesting review in many ways, but he appeard to run out of time when he reached the Summit in his review, and completely ignored most of the rest, including the vision, elegy and thunderstorm. Even the Epilogue was skimped over.

If you would like a performance something like last night's, you might like Zinman's Zurich version. It's quite superb, and I think it worthy to go alongside the great RPO/Kempe, Horst Stein, Shipway, and Barenboim versions.

If you really want Karajan, ignore the DG CD, and try to find the same performers' video version. Unfortunately, HvK's DVD isn't available at present.

Returning to William Mival, he also recommended Bohm. i can't think why - so dull. But he and I agree about the merits of Bernard Haitink (now on Newton Classics) and excellent in every way.

[teamsaint]

Sounds like people had a great night , and certainly whets the appetite for Maazel and the Philharmonia's crack at the Alpensinfonie in March at the RFH .
Anybody booked up for that one?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Did anyone listen to it on Radio 3.

[Stanfordian]

The Alpine Symphony live is always "an event" and this was no exception - for me the most recent experience of it prior to last night was of Bernard Haitink and the Vienna Philharmonic at the Proms.

Many beautiful things in both, but heretical though it may be, I preferred the brass last night to the slightly scrawnier and splittier output of the authentic Viennese instruments. Particular plaudits were due to the 1st horn (Andrew Budden, BBCPO) for his perfectly controlled solos in the calm after the storm. Also to the 1st trumpet (Gareth Small, Halle) for the fearless nailing of every prominent entry and most especially for leading the whole orchestra at times by blazing out Strauss's stratospheric top notes in a manner too seldom heard these days.

Only disappointment - what on earth happened to the wind machines? With 3 thundersheets there was clearly no skimping going on, plus we had 3 wind machines for Don Quixote a few days before, but last night no sign of them and not even a mild breeze to be heard. To leave them out for artistic reasons would seem a perverse conductorial decision, so surely not that? Otherwise a very fine performance.

Edit: Just listened to the Festival Prelude again on the iPlayer to cheer myself up as I'm still making up the work time I lost getting to Manchester yesterday. What a inducing racket!

I was at one of the Don Quixote rehearsals with 2 wind machines and attended the Bridgewater Don Quixote performance when they were using three wind machines. In truth I could hardly hear them at either the rehearsal or at the Bridgewater performance. They were a real let down.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've moved a few posts here from the BaL forum as they seemed more relevant here.

[Stanfordian]

To those two indispensable recordings I would add Christian Thielemann and the Wiener Philharmoniker on DG.

Hiya Petrushka Yes I would agree. In the Alpine Symphony in addition to my first choices of the Berliner Philharmoniker/Karajan and Staatskapelle Dresden/Kempe I also have the Christian Thielemann account with the Wiener Philharmoniker on DG and it's a fine recording; certainly worthy of consideration.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well, I'm clearly outvoted on this, but for what its worth, the following is my review of the 1980 HvK recording.


Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra; Herbert von Karajan – 51 minutes, 2 seconds

Here we have a problem. I cannot recommend this recording, despite its revered status elsewhere.

One two occasions, BBC Radio 3’s Building a Library (part of CD Review) chose Karajan’s Eine Alpensinfonie CD as its library choice, the most recent being William Mival in January 2011. Following its original CD release in 1983, the singer Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau raved about it, commenting on its excellent sound quality, highlighting its exceptional clarity. Not only was it released in the prestigious first batch of CDs ever issued, but it was also the first classical CD to be pressed – a logical decision in view of the fact that in the days of vinyl LPs, an unwelcome break in the music was unavoidable.

Karajan’s vision of the music is masterly, and it is difficult to fault his choice of tempi. Furthermore, he has the superb Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra at his disposal.

So why can I not recommend this recording?

On the performance side, there are numerous instance of poor ensemble and suspect intonation. The major difficulty, however, is with the recorded sound. Being oppressively closely recorded, there are many places where th sound is quite congested and listening to such a long work with this characteristic can quickly become wearing. Deutsche Grammophon’s recording techniques in the early digital era often left much to be desired, but some years later, the company remixed some of these recordings, including Karajan’s Eine Alpensinfonie, under the 4G banner, resulting in some improvement to the sound.

Others may be less disturbed by these shortcomings, just as many people readily accept the more obvious faults of 78 rpm mono recordings from an earlier era.

From the first moments of the recording, the closeness of the sound is quite noticeable, even in the quiet “night” music. The richness of tone of the Berlin Philharmonic in the great “sunrise” climax is minimised by the oppressively recorded sound. Yet every decision of tempo changes and each musical emphasis chosen by the conductor shows Karajan’s deep understand of this music, except, perhaps, for the offstage band at the end of the otherwise superb “ascent” section. For the band is hardly offstage at all, despite Karajan re-recording this section between the original LP release and the later CD issue. Indeed, this offstage group sounds closer than the main brass section on several other recordings.

On “entering the forest”, one has the feeling that despite the uncomfortable sound quality, this would have been quite superb in the concert hall, and this applies to much of Karajan’s performance. Much detail is lost as a result of the “swimmy” sound in the “wandering by the stream” passage. Clarity returns for the “waterfall” music, but the use of close microphones robs the music of much of its subtlety; the spotlighting of instruments suggests poor judgement by those concerned. Similarly, the close recording of the violins in the “flowery meadows” section degrades the gentleness and beauty of sound. Yet the “mountain pasture” section is quite well recorded, with cowbells placed at a natural distance; whilst the oboist does perfect flutter tonguing, the E flat clarinet does not even attempt to fake it, playing repeated semiquavers instead.

Even Karajan and the great Berlin Philharmonic had their off days, and the “lost in thicket and undergrowth is particularly scrappy. Surely a retake would have been worthwhile here?
A rather understated oboe solo brings a nice atmosphere to the opening of the “summit” section, but when the violins re-enter, that uncomfortable edge returns as well. The climactic tutti that follows is even more uncomfortable to listen to, even though the actual playing is “echt” Karajan. Things only become worse when the “vision” becomes an intonation nightmare, with some apparently flat playing. This may have been the result of a poor edit from different sessions, but that is only speculation. The oboe countermelody is surprisingly prominent in view of the normally dominant string sound. “Rising mists” is misty for the wrong reasons, with quite confused sound balance, and subsequent sections are murky and imprecise. An excitingly conceived thunderstorm is again hampered by the heavy sound and some scrappy playing by the brass.

In the original 1983 CD issue, the “sunset” suffered from the very close violin sound, but in the newer 4D remix, it sounds considerably better, but there is still the impression that the violin countermelody is more important than the main melody, played by the brass.

Karajan’s slow and deeply felt “epilogue” has been much praised elsewhere, but although the violins sound glorious, the balance remains poor for everyone else. Even in this slow section, there are moments of poor ensemble.

Although it is disappointing that a great interpretation has been marred by DG’s teething problems with digital sound, and by Karajan allowing some uncharacteristic playing to be passed on to the final recording, there is a 1983 DVD recording by the same artists. Although less widely available than this much publicised audio only recording, the DVD is better all round.

[mercia]

forgive my stupidity but for Thursday evening's Alpine, was it the whole of the BBCPO and Halle playing together ?

[Flay]

forgive my stupidity but for Thursday evening's Alpine, was it the whole of the BBCPO and Halle playing together ?

I doubt if every player was there (and we were told that members of the Manchester Camerata were involved in the performance too, perhaps for the off-stage brass), but the stage was packed. Did anyone do a head-count?

[Andrew Slater]

Only parts of each orchestra, but there were more players in total than in either orchestra. e.g. both timpanists and both tuba players were present. It seemed that the string principals were those of the Hallé and woodwind were of the BBCPO, brass of the Hallé, with desks roughly alternating betwen the two. There seemed to be exceptions to make up the numbers. (I think I spotted the BBCPO's principal viola behind the Hallé's.)

The strategy for choosing the principals and players was discussed in the interval of the concert - about 52 mins in.