Performance on 3 25 Feb 2011 LSO/Harding

[french frank]

Now, there's a test. I don't think it's Stern, but someone like that? [i.e. that sort of age]

[Cellini]

I'm going to stick my kneck out and say, as its someone with a big vibrato and sugary sound, it could be Zuckermann or Perlman?

It was certainly a lot better than last night, but recorded in quite a boomy and echoey hall. (Or did they just add a lot of reverb?)

[Cellini]

Cellini - Your review of the Brahms Violin Concerto, for which many thanks, did prompt me to listen to it on BBCiPlayer today. But for your review I would have blamed the thin sound of the solo violin on microphone placing. I know too little about the violin to comment further. A couple of questions though: Would another soloist playing the very same instrument have been able to produce a richer sound? Is it perhaps just nerves which can be responsible for producing such an unsatisfactory, not to say unpleasant, sound?

Interesting question! Yes, I think another player probably could and would, providing the instrument was a good one. The sound is 95% the player and only 5% the instrument, so another player would make a different sound, but their own sound.

I've just seen an interesting DVD and CD of James Ehnes playing on nine different fiddles, all Strads and Guanarius del Gesu's. He sounded the same on all instruments, with just subtle differences hardly detectable to me anyway. On the CD he plays the same passage from the Bruch Scottish Fantasy on each instrument, and there is only a slight difference between two of the del Gesu's played at the end of the section. (one is not quite as good as the other).

Of course this sort of test has limitations because I noticed on the DVD that the mic remained in the same position throughout, as it obviously should, but of course the gain would have been adjusted to keep each instrument recorded at the same level. So this would not show up which violin had the biggest sound and projected the most.

I have suggested that the nine Stads and del G's should be tested against nine of the best modern instruments, say all no more than about 30 years old. However, I've been informed by an Americam luthier that owners of these valuable instruments are nervous about any new tests as they have in the past found that in blind tests people prefered the new instruments! One complained that it was unfair when he had to pay so much to insure them every year!

The man who owns the nine instruments and more as well has about £40 million + invested, plus a lot of valuable bows, and he is the one who bought the "Marsick" Strad I heard James playing on Monday at the Wigmore Hall. He has it on permanent loan, he can't afford to buy it. He's just a poor musician like the rest of us, except he's certainly not a poor player, only poor in wealth terms.

Edit: Oh yes, and of course in the case of Janine Jansens nerves can wreck your sound, and nerves are usually the result of a loss in confidence due to a dodgy technique. But I heard her Wigmore a few months ago and her sound was if anything even worse!!

[Pianorak]

Cellini - Thanks for your response. Have just looked at Ms Jansen's website and found this interesting snippet:

<<The outstanding instrument being used by Janine Jansen is the violin by Antonio Stradivari, Cremona, 1727, “Barrere” on extended loan from the Elise Mathilde Fund.>>

I wonder if she played it for the Brahms under discussion. Any view on that instrument?

Edited: [Cellini quote] But I heard her Wigmore a few months ago and her sound was if anything even worse!!

Difficult to believe - Poor girl! What can one say!?

[johnb]

It was Christian Ferras with the BPO/Karajan.

Cellini,

About the sound produced by different violins and the players or listener's perception: would it be fair to say that the player is greatly more aware of the nuances of different instruments and their responsiveness and the way they 'speak' to his or her playing than a listener would ever realise, and that the difference in responsiveness, the capabilities of the instrument to 'speak' and the range of colours and dynamics, etc in turn influence how the violinist responds to the instrument and the music and that can, in turn, influence his or her interpretation and raise his performance?

I ask because that was definitely my impression in the past when I played various classical guitars from bog standard to fine concert instruments. Mind you I was a pretty lousy classical guitarist.

[johnb]

PS I've just read, on Wikipedia, that "Christian Ferras struggled with severe lifelong depression. He committed suicide in Paris on September 14, 1982."

So very, very sad.

[Cellini]

Cellini - Thanks for your response. Have just looked at Ms Jansen's website and found this interesting snippet:

<<The outstanding instrument being used by Janine Jansen is the violin by Antonio Stradivari, Cremona, 1727, “Barrere” on extended loan from the Elise Mathilde Fund.>>

I wonder if she played it for the Brahms under discussion. Any view on that instrument?

Well, I imagine that's what she played on. Of course (and I know nothing about that Strad), not all Strads are great, and in fact there are some that are hard to play on. I knew someone with a duff Strad years ago, but he managed to make it sound pretty good at the Wigmore Hall. I know the cellist Robert Cohen told me he got rid of his Strad because it was unreliable.

Someone else might well sound completely different on that same instrument.

[Pianorak]

. . . not all Strads are great . . .

Sounds a bit like Steinways.

[Cellini]

It was Christian Ferras with the BPO/Karajan.

Cellini,

About the sound produced by different violins and the players or listener's perception: would it be fair to say that the player is greatly more aware of the nuances of different instruments and their responsiveness and the way they 'speak' to his or her playing than a listener would ever realise, and that the difference in responsiveness, the capabilities of the instrument to 'speak' and the range of colours and dynamics, etc in turn influence how the violinist responds to the instrument and the music and that can, in turn, influence his or her interpretation and raise his performance?

I ask because that was definitely my impression in the past when I played various classical guitars from bog standard to fine concert instruments. Mind you I was a pretty lousy classical guitarist.

I knew I would get that wrong. In fact I've only ever heard Christian Ferras briefly on youtube. But I did know he suffered from depression and committed suicide. A great loss.

As for instruments, yes - it can influence a player to play in a certain way - but it would still be fairly subtle. It's true that on a good instrument one would be able to raise the performance level.

What players of all stringed instruments look for is a big sound and the ability of the instrument to carry well, in other words, projection. Players sound more or less the same on any reasonably good instrument, but some instruments will carry much better, and this will in turn make it less hard work for the player. So its easier to project a pianissimo, and at fff you don't have to use so much pressure and play quite so near to the bridge, but in any case we all do play nearer the bridge even if the instrument has a huge sound!

[amateur51]

Ah Christian Ferras was a wonderful artist. It is always sad when someone can no longer carry on with life, such that they decide to take matters into their own hands.

Fortunately he has left some fine recordings and there are some 'live' performances available on youtube too:

He and Pierre Barbizet recorded a fine set of Beethoven violin sonatas in 1958 that are still available and sounding good.

Here are Ferras & Barbizet in the first movement of Franck's violin sonata - the rest is available on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnQEr-ctfZ8&feature=fvst

And here he is with a very young Zubin Mehta in a wonderfully virile and sensuous account of Sibelius violin concerto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Kq0qMMpgU

[Pianorak]

. . .Here are Ferras & Barbizet in the first movement of Franck's violin sonata - the rest is available on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnQEr-ctfZ8&feature=fvst . . .

Thanks for posting that link - what a treat. I've got the Beethoven violin sonatas with Ferras and Barbizet - but haven't played them for years as for some unaccountable reason I didn't take to them, thinking Ferras sounded a bit too harsh. Will listen to them again, and let's hope I've matured a bit and can appreciate good performances when I hear them.

Just been listening to the op.12/1 - no reservations about the playing whatsoever. Can only assume I wasn't in a receptive mood when listening the first time round (happens, you know ).

[Daring Tripod]

So very many thanks Cellini for starting this thread and all your erudite postings. I am learning a lot from the discussion and thoroughly enjoy all the comments. That's what the 'Radio 3 Forum' should be about. Thanks again to all of you

[Cellini]

So very many thanks Cellini for starting this thread and all your erudite postings. I am learning a lot from the discussion and thoroughly enjoy all the comments. That's what the 'Radio 3 Forum' should be about. Thanks again to all of you

Thank you DT for starting the thread!

I've just found out a bit more about Janine Jansen. She has apparently had to take 5 months off due to overwork. Maybe she is still having problems? It sounds like she may have only just started concertising again.

I also saw a couple of videos of her being interviewed in Paris, and one of her playing some French music. Pity the director tried to make it into a feature film! But I could see in the brief moments when I could see her properly that maybe there is a problem with her left hand, but there was so much back lighting and fast cutting it was dificult to be certain. And I'm almost sure it was the Strad she was playing on. Trouble is she's so dead georgeous, that I have a problem concentating on her technique and her playing. I think she is basically pretty musical, but just has the other problems.

If she just wants wine and succour and a friendly hand to calm her then I wouldn't say no, especially if I could try out that Strad, amongst other things. Better say no more ...

[Pianorak]

. . . If she just wants wine and succour and a friendly hand to calm her then I wouldn't say no, especially if I could try out that Strad, amongst other things. Better say no more ...

I think you might be too late. I felt there was definitely some "chemistry" between her and Richard Dubugnon, the French composer who interviewed her.

[Cellini]

I think you might be too late. I felt there was definitely some "chemistry" between her and Richard Dubugnon, the French composer who interviewed her.

Yes, I had that feeling too. They were almost holding hands at one point and he had his hand on her shoulder at another. Lucky blighter, I'm very jealous and he's only a composer ...