Wednesday 23/10/13 lpo/nezet-seguin/prokofiev/poulenc live r3

[edashtav]

Following that line of argument, one could level the same criticism at Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Webern, Bartok, Boulez, Ligeti, Verdi, Puccini, Strauss (R) et al. This really is a straw man argument; it only has validity if it could be proved that either composer desperately wanted to compose a symphony but aborted it through inability to compose one. Moreover, in the mid late 20th century the symphony had already lost its place as the acme of compositional technique. Do we really value Honegger, Piston, Rautavaara ahead of Berg and Bartok?


.

Britten did attempt symphonies : S.da R. ; 'Cello; Spring: none of them show a real command of symphonic argument. I'm fond of Stravinsky's Symphonies: Eb,C,"in 3" ,Psalms, etc. and they show in their differing ways a command of the medium.There's plenty to admire in Webern's symphony. I do value Honegger's efforts, highly!

Your point about Britten's metier being opera is well-made.

I've always found the War Requiem to be derivative and unexceptional - but... I accept that's a minority opinion. Again, Britten's Violin Concerto seems to me to have been written after studying Prokofiev and Berg's masterly efforts. The 2nd & 3rd string quartets are, I agree, amongst Britten's finest pieces and should be performed even more frequently.

Neither Britten nor Poulenc deserve to be put on a shelf and forgotten but if neither had existed would the progress of music during the 20th century have been so different, outside of GB and France, Sir Velo?

[edashtav]

I'll never stop loving Poulenc's Stabat Mater. This was again a weighty, slightly Germanic-sounding performance; but it is a serious work, and it would be a shame if more listeners don't seek it out and learn to know and love it, just because it doesn't initially have the epic length or impact of a Missa Solemnis or a German Requiem. It belongs more with Szymanowski's Stabat Mater, Petrassi's Magnificat - or indeed Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms. All highly original masterpieces of Religious text-setting which don't always need to storm heaven to make their beautiful, memorable and expressive points.
And for me at least, it's impossible to remain dry-eyed when those final cries of "Paradisi Gloria" fade down and fade away, their appeal to serenity heavily tinged with loss and lost love...

"Fac me vere tecum flere!"

Well, Jayne, your advocacy of Poulenc is so well expressed and heartfelt that I'm beginning to feel a bit of a cad as I pen that Szymanowski's Stabat Mater seems to me a better piece- more integrated in idiom, more economical with its material and consistently "on-message". Maybe, I defend that to my dying breath against a back-drop of your contrary litany of supplication. You mention that Poulenc's piece has similar proportions to Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms - frankly, when the first, open chord of the Stabat Mater sounded last evening I fully expected the whole of that work to follow. Take Stravinsky out of Poulence and you remove so much of its grist. I'm surprised that included Petrassi's Magnificat - a positive, cheerful utterance in your analogies - would not his blacker (neo-Stravinskian?) Coro di Morti fit a little better?

Your adjective "Germanic" for the LPO's performance was well-selected. It is a serious work, but it's seriousness has to allow lighter moments - think of Rossini's religious pieces - "solonnelle" does not, and must not, rule out frisky. Fun can be serious. I needed more champagne bubbles than I got last evening. This listener remained earthbound as you were uplifted to heaven.

I did think- in the years since Poulenc's death has the relative dearth of performances of his music meant that we've lost touch with how to perform his music?

[teamsaint]

Britten did attempt symphonies : S.da R. ; 'Cello; Spring bt none of them show a real command of symphonic argument. I'm fond of Stravinsky's Symphonies: Eb,C,"in 3" ,Psalms, etc. and they show in their differing ways a command of the medium.There's plenty to admire in Webern's symphony. I do value Honegger's efforts, highly!

Your point about Britten's metier being opera is well-made.

I've always found the War Requiem to be derivative and unexceptional - but... I accept that's a minority opinion. Again, Britten's Violin Concerto seems to me to have been written after studying Prokofiev and Berg's masterly efforts. The 2nd & 3rd string quartets are, I agree, amongst Britten's finest pieces and should be performed even more frequently.

Neither Britten nor Poulenc deserve to be put on a shelf and forgotten but if neither had existed would the progress of music during the 20th century have been so different, outside of GB and France, Sir Velo?

interesting to compare Britten's huge success in general, despite the lack of Symphonies, with the failure of Robert Simpson's symphonies (and those of others such as Rubbra and Arnold) to get anything like regular performances, at least at the present time.
(The success of some of Britten's choral works is easy to understand of course , as there is a substantial demand for interesting repertoire among the many performing groups, choirs etc. )

Sorry, off topic, I suppose, and not comparing like with like.
?

[Serial_Apologist]

interesting to compare Britten's huge success in general, despite the lack of Symphonies, with the failure of Robert Simpson's symphonies (and those of others such as Rubbra and Arnold) to get anything like regular performances, at least at the present time.
(The success of some of Britten's choral works is easy to understand of course , as there is a substantial demand for interesting repertoire among the many performing groups, choirs etc. )

Sorry, off topic, I suppose.

Britten came along as one of the new generation of "bright young things" in the 1930s; Simpson belongs to a slightly later generation who emerged in the early 1950s. Declaring himself from the start committed to restoring tonality to what he considered to be its rightful centrality to music, in the teeth of hostility from modern taste-setters who were then firmly wedded to atonality and serialism; Britten was probably well enough established reputationwise by that point, largely by "Grimes", to escape charges of reaction.

[jayne lee wilson]

Edashtav....

For me, the melodic character of the Poulenc, and the use of a soprano, aligns it with the sweeter sound and the soprano leggiero of Petrassi's Magnificat; his Coro di Morti (like Salmo IX) surely "comes from" such as IS's Oedipus Rex or even (given the Coro's orchestration for brass, doublebasses, percussion and 3 pianos) Les Noces. Stony and austere, almost Pagan - none of that indulgent, Roman Catholic bread-and-wine sweetness, Ed ...

Petrassi's Coro di Morti also seems to link back further to Monteverdi's madrigals, the music following the words rather than the baroque, sometimes operatic melodic elaborations of the aforementioned Stabat Mater and Magnificat...
It makes me wonder how Poulenc's late Sept Repons des Tenebres would sound in this context. I was very impressed with this many years ago, and now eagerly await the arrival of one of its very infrequent recordings...

[edashtav]

Edashtav....

For me, the melodic character of the Poulenc, and the use of a soprano, aligns it with the sweeter sound and the soprano leggiero of Petrassi's Magnificat; his Coro di Morti (like Salmo IX) surely "comes from" such as IS's Oedipus Rex or even (given the Coro's orchestration for brass, doublebasses, percussion and 3 pianos) Les Noces. Stony and austere, almost Pagan - none of that indulgent, Roman Catholic bread-and-wine sweetness, Ed ...

Petrassi's Coro di Morti also seems to link back further to Monteverdi's madrigals, the music following the words rather than the baroque, sometimes operatic melodic elaborations of the aforementioned Stabat Mater and Magnificat...
It makes me wonder how Poulenc's late Sept Repons des Tenebres would sound in this context. I was very impressed with this many years ago, and now eagerly await the arrival of one of its very infrequent recordings...

Ah, I see where you're coming from,Jayne, and that you separated religious works from the pagan ones. Fine - it's good to see the depth of your Petrassi knowledge - one of my favourite 20th century composers. During one of my manic phases, I once vowed to listen to nothing but Petrassi's concerti for orchestra until I felt that I knew and understood them. It took me three months! Must rush - planning meeting to attend- mudst keep the developers at bay!

[Nick Armstrong]

Even more chance to assess, in the live concert on Saturday evening!

(It's a pleasure to be able to use that latter phrase!)

[jayne lee wilson]

Ah, I see where you're coming from,Jayne, and that you separated religious works from the pagan ones. Fine - it's good to see the depth of your Petrassi knowledge - one of my favourite 20th century composers. During one of my manic phases, I once vowed to listen to nothing but Petrassi's concerti for orchestra until I felt that I knew and understood them. It took me three months! Must rush - planning meeting to attend- mudst keep the developers at bay!

Oh yes, those Concerti mean a lot to me too. I managed to get the earlier of the two integrales, with Pesko directing BBCSO, Hungarica & Milano RAI in the summer (great cover shot of a mirror held up to a gloomy sky). The first order got stolen but the replacement arrived on my birthday! That WAS a happy return... the RAI are a bit studiobound in 5&6, but it's definitely worth having along with the Tamayo. (I shouldn't be here either - work beckons....)

[edashtav]

Oh yes, those Concerti mean a lot to me too. I managed to get the earlier of the two integrales, with Pesko directing BBCSO, Hungarica & Milano RAI in the summer (great cover shot of a mirror held up to a gloomy sky). The first order got stolen but the replacement arrived on my birthday! That WAS a happy return... the RAI are a bit studiobound in 5&6, but it's definitely worth having along with the Tamayo. (I shouldn't be here either - work beckons....)

Phew, folk are so keen to get to grips with Petrassi that they steal them en route to the paying listener!

Sad for you, Jayne, but cheering for those of us who feel that contemporary music is important. I have the same Pesko set (£11 in a sale) but not the later alternative.

I like the story that John Weissmann tells in his little book on Petrassi. Apparently, his family moved to Rome when the composer was seven. Little Goffredo entered the Eternal city on top of a wine-cart.
That's what I call style! But... have I just mentioned Petrassi's fatal flaw - that he composed in more styles than were good for him?

[edashtav]

The Poulenc Piano Concerto was very well played by the LPO, but was a little texturally heavy and expressively cool, conductor and soloist taking it seriously (perhaps a little TOO seriously) as a post-Romantic 20thCentury concerto. I'm not sure this works; at any rate I missed the French orchestral sound here, the suavity, colour and grace evinced by Dutoit and Roge or those earlier Parisian Classics. This may have been because the soloist wouldn't "let go" - remaining strangely straight-laced and straight-faced, too charmless by far in music which demands a vivid sense of its moods and allusions. I wouldn't over-think its predecessors or background too much - just go with its rapid-fire bipolarities.

![/B]"

With the Double Concerto surfacing tomorrow, I thought that I ought to catch up with the 1950 Piano Concerto on iPlayer this evening. I listened with your comments in mind, Jayne, and I felt that you captured the strengths and weaknesses of this performance very well. I don't regard it as a work of the highest order, characterising it in my own mind as "Francis Goes to Hollywood", but it has a wealth of fine tunes and, as always with Poulenc, its "bitter-sweet" nature stops it from becoming cloying and cheap.

I'm going to put a little more of the blame for the heaviness of this performance at the door of the LPO - particularly its brass section. Their weight , I felt, stopped, Tharaud from refining his texture and touch - he needed to compete just a little too hard to be heard. Everything was there but the souffle needed more air, the texture threatened to turn into a Yorkshire Pudding. I understand the string section was reduced for the Concerto - very sensible, but the horns should have been ordered to "pipe down". I've asked the question elsewhere- have we, have British orchestras, lost touch with a performing tradition when it comes to Poulenc? I look forward to the Double Piano Concerto with a different British orchestra with sharpened interest.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, but could anyone ever play Poulenc again like Pretre in Paris? Just listen to the Conservatoire strings in the Sinfonietta! Dutoit gets closest, but you'd hope Minkowski's direction would help!...

I would urge you to acquire the Tamayo Petrassi Concerti per Orchestra, beautifully recorded with Netherlands RPO in 4 sessions across 2003-4, they're all of a piece. Nos. 5 and 6 (in some ways the twin peaks of the cycle) are terrifically well-played, with a spectacular recording of atmospheric intensity.

Generous as ever I would say Petrassi's changing styles were (in the absence, perhaps, of a distinctive "personal voice") simply a reflection of the music of his century, through all its metamorphoses. Starting from the neoclassical 1920s & 30s, evolving across 4 decades as a baedeker to some of the major styles and influences of 20thC orchestral composition, the 8 Concerti trace a remarkable journey from the expressive string melodies of No.4 to the violent colour-block contrasts of No.8.
What engages me most about them is a visionary quality that you first sense in the earlier slow sections, which bursts through into the threnodies of 5 and 6; finds an intense, otherworldly beauty in the xylorimba cadenza of the 7th; and which finally explodes into that last shocking coda and the bleak fadeout...

....if Petrassi's own voice is heard anywhere, it's in those epiphanies.

[edashtav]

Yes, but could anyone ever play Poulenc again like Pretre in Paris? Just listen to the Conservatoire strings in the Sinfonietta! Dutoit gets closest, but you'd hope Minkowski's direction would help!...

I would urge you to acquire the Tamayo Petrassi Concerti per Orchestra, beautifully recorded with Netherlands RPO in 4 sessions across 2003-4, they're all of a piece. Nos. 5 and 6 (in some ways the twin peaks of the cycle) are terrifically well-played, with a spectacular recording of atmospheric intensity.

Generous as ever I would say Petrassi's changing styles were (in the absence, perhaps, of a distinctive "personal voice") simply a reflection of the music of his century, through all its metamorphoses. Starting from the neoclassical 1920s & 30s, evolving across 4 decades as a baedeker to some of the major styles and influences of 20thC orchestral composition, the 8 Concerti trace a remarkable journey from the expressive string melodies of No.4 to the violent colour-block contrasts of No.8.
What engages me most about them is a visionary quality that you first sense in the earlier slow sections, which bursts through into the threnodies of 5 and 6; finds an intense, otherworldly beauty in the xylorimba cadenza of the 7th; and which finally explodes into that last shocking coda and the bleak fadeout...

....if Petrassi's own voice is heard anywhere, it's in those epiphanies.

I hadn't appreciated that there was a 2nd, finer set of Goffredo's concerti until your "Epistle to the Petrassians", Jayne. This doubter took your advice over Venzago's Bruckner and became a convert & so is tempted to become a camp follower, again. Your views on where the heart of Petrassi is buried are perceptive.

Georges Pretre in Paris - yes, that's what I'm missing - spot on!

What you've said on Petrassi's stylistic excursions applies equally to Igor, doesn't it!

Boarders have been identifying their 10 necessary composers, recently, - by my reckoning "epiphanies" figures in Jayne's top ten vital words.

[Serial_Apologist]

Drifting a bit off-topic here, but it would be sooooo nice were the BBC to broadcast some Petrassi sometime? All I have ever heard on R3 (in 50 years' worth of listening) has been the charming neoclassical Sonata da camera of 1948, and the very impressive 12-tone string quartet of 1959. I wonder if his alleged sympathies for the Mussolini regime have anything to do with his neglect.

[Thropplenoggin]

I hadn't appreciated that there was a 2nd, finer set of Goffredo's concerti until your "Epistle to the Petrassians", Jayne. This doubter took your advice over Venzago's Bruckner and became a convert & so is tempted to become a camp follower, again. Your views on where the heart of Petrassi is buried are perceptive.

Georges Pretre in Paris - yes, that's what I'm missing - spot on!

What you've said on Petrassi's stylistic excursions applies equally to Igor, doesn't it!

Boarders have been identifying their 10 necessary composers, recently, - by my reckoning "epiphanies" figures in Jayne's top ten vital words.

8, surely, eh saly?

[jayne lee wilson]

Drifting a bit off-topic here, but it would be sooooo nice were the BBC to broadcast some Petrassi sometime? All I have ever heard on R3 (in 50 years' worth of listening) has been the charming neoclassical Sonata da camera of 1948, and the very impressive 12-tone string quartet of 1959. I wonder if his alleged sympathies for the Mussolini regime have anything to do with his neglect.

I do recall a Maida Vale R3 relay of the Concerti - a selection of 4 (or 6) I think - possibly during the 1990s; I must have the C90 somewhere - but no deck to play it on... let's not forget that Max Davies studied with him too.