Concert Pitch

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  • slarty
    • Dec 2024

    Concert Pitch

    The problems for modern singers can be heightened by having to sing at higher pitches than their counterparts from the past.
    With the difference in orchestral pitch between our British Orchestras, which still adhere to "concert pitch" and certain famous European and American orchestras which tune slightly higher, it is clear why reviews sometimes state that "XXX" orchestra has such a brilliant sound. By tuning higher, the sound becomes more brilliant. This does not help singers who are singing today at CG in e.g. Aida and the next time, in the same work, at a different house in a different country, where the pitch is fractionally higher, and the reviews say that "so and so" sounded very tight at the top of his/her voice.

    I quote from Wikipedia to give non-musicians an idea of "Concert Pitch", as we know it in Britain.

    A = 440 Hz is the only official standard and is widely used around the world. Many orchestras in the United Kingdom adhere to this standard as concert pitch. In the United States some orchestras use A = 440 Hz, while others, such as New York Philharmonic and the Boston Symphony Orchestra, use A = 442 Hz. The latter is also often used as tuning frequency in Europe, especially in Denmark, France, Hungary, Italy, Norway and Switzerland. Nearly all modern symphony orchestras in Germany and Austria and many in other countries in continental Europe (such as Russia, Sweden and Spain) tune to A = 443 Hz.
    In practice the orchestras tune to a note given out by the oboe, and many oboists use an electronic tuning device. When playing with fixed-pitch instruments such as the piano, the orchestra will generally tune to them—a piano will normally have been tuned to the orchestra's normal pitch. Overall, it is thought that the general trend since the middle of the 20th century has been for standard pitch to rise, though it has been rising far more slowly than it has in the past. Some orchestras like the Berliner Philharmoniker now use a slightly lower pitch (443 Hz) than their highest previous standard (445 Hz).
    Many modern ensembles which specialize in the performance of Baroque music have agreed on a standard of A = 415 Hz. An exact equal-tempered semitone lower than A = 440 would be 440/21/12 = 415.3047 Hz; this is rounded to the nearest integer. In principle this allows for playing along with modern fixed-pitch instruments if their parts are transposed down a semitone. It is, however, common performance practice, especially in the German Baroque idiom, to tune certain works to Chorton, approximately a semitone higher than A-440 (460–470 Hz) (e.g., Pre-Leipzig period cantatas of Bach).
    In the realm of popular music electronic keyboards (those, that is, whose tuning cannot be adjusted which includes almost all the cheaper ones for home use) are still tuned to the A=440 Hz standard in the 2nd decade of the 21st century. Electronic tuners for guitar or bass incorporated into guitar or bass amplifiers (such as those incorporated into some of the amplifiers of the Roland CUBE series) also use a fixed A=440 Hz tuning with no possibility for adjustment.

    I would like to hear from the musicians amongst us about this.
    I had problems years ago with a new clarinet bought in France which only played in tune with the rest of the orchestra by pulling the barrel out quite a
    distance. Did the brass players amongst you have similar problems?

    Will we ever get a world-wide standard?
  • MrGongGong
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 18357

    #2
    Will we ever get a world-wide standard?
    No , never


    440 is not a "standard" anymore

    I think you will find that a huge number of instruments are now made to A=442
    and (sorry for repeating !) the whole idea that Oboes play A=440 (even though they say they do !) is nonsense, ask a harpist !

    You can always tell when an orchestra is playing to a different pitch to the one that the oboist claims when you see the harp player/s frantically retuning after the A is given

    Comment

    • Hornspieler
      Late Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 1847

      #3
      Originally posted by slarty View Post
      The problems for modern singers can be heightened by having to sing at higher pitches than their counterparts from the past.
      With the difference in orchestral pitch between our British Orchestras, which still adhere to "concert pitch" and certain famous European and American orchestras which tune slightly higher, it is clear why reviews sometimes state that "XXX" orchestra has such a brilliant sound. By tuning higher, the sound becomes more brilliant. This does not help singers who are singing today at CG in e.g. Aida and the next time, in the same work, at a different house in a different country, where the pitch is fractionally higher, and the reviews say that "so and so" sounded very tight at the top of his/her voice.

      I quote from Wikipedia to give non-musicians an idea of "Concert Pitch", as we know it in Britain.

      A = 440 Hz is the only official standard and is widely used around the world. Many orchestras in the United Kingdom adhere to this standard as concert pitch. In the United States some orchestras use A = 440 Hz, while others, such as New York Philharmonic and the Boston Symphony Orchestra, use A = 442 Hz. The latter is also often used as tuning frequency in Europe, especially in Denmark, France, Hungary, Italy, Norway and Switzerland. Nearly all modern symphony orchestras in Germany and Austria and many in other countries in continental Europe (such as Russia, Sweden and Spain) tune to A = 443 Hz.
      In practice the orchestras tune to a note given out by the oboe, and many oboists use an electronic tuning device. When playing with fixed-pitch instruments such as the piano, the orchestra will generally tune to them—a piano will normally have been tuned to the orchestra's normal pitch. Overall, it is thought that the general trend since the middle of the 20th century has been for standard pitch to rise, though it has been rising far more slowly than it has in the past. Some orchestras like the Berliner Philharmoniker now use a slightly lower pitch (443 Hz) than their highest previous standard (445 Hz).
      Many modern ensembles which specialize in the performance of Baroque music have agreed on a standard of A = 415 Hz. An exact equal-tempered semitone lower than A = 440 would be 440/21/12 = 415.3047 Hz; this is rounded to the nearest integer. In principle this allows for playing along with modern fixed-pitch instruments if their parts are transposed down a semitone. It is, however, common performance practice, especially in the German Baroque idiom, to tune certain works to Chorton, approximately a semitone higher than A-440 (460–470 Hz) (e.g., Pre-Leipzig period cantatas of Bach).
      In the realm of popular music electronic keyboards (those, that is, whose tuning cannot be adjusted which includes almost all the cheaper ones for home use) are still tuned to the A=440 Hz standard in the 2nd decade of the 21st century. Electronic tuners for guitar or bass incorporated into guitar or bass amplifiers (such as those incorporated into some of the amplifiers of the Roland CUBE series) also use a fixed A=440 Hz tuning with no possibility for adjustment.

      I would like to hear from the musicians amongst us about this.
      I had problems years ago with a new clarinet bought in France which only played in tune with the rest of the orchestra by pulling the barrel out quite a
      distance. Did the brass players amongst you have similar problems?

      Will we ever get a world-wide standard?
      Brass players have tuning slides, which are never used in the fully closed position, so adjusting to a higher pitch is no problem. Many organs are tuned higher than A=440 and this can be a problem for such as organ concertos, when the clarinets in particular can do nothing to raise their pitch except to blow as much hot breath into the instrument as possible. They sometimes have to do this in a cold rehearsal room first thing in the morning.
      The variations between A=440 and A=442 are not so great as to worry a competent singer.

      Where more extreme differences are involved (in HIPP performances for example) I think that Tony is the person best qualified to quote chapter and verse on the subject.

      HS

      Comment

      • Vile Consort
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 696

        #4
        Many organs are tuned lower than A=440. Harrison & Harrison instruments of the 20's and 30's are tuned to A=435. This makes it quite difficult for brass and woodwind players because their instruments fall apart before the slides/mouthpieces can be pulled out far enough.

        Raising the pitch of an organ isn't something to be undertaken lightly. A large parish church near here with a 52-stop Harrison & Harrison dating from the 1920's asked the firm for a price for raising it from 435 to 440. The letter that came back said "we strongly advise you against doing this, but if you insist, here's the work that needs doing ... and our price will be just short of £200,000". It included melting down some of ranks of pipes and making new ones.

        Shortening the pipes not only raises the pitch but also changes the tone because the pipes become wider in proportion to their length. The pipes become more fluty, and produce fewer harmonics, so the instrument tends to sound duller. Interestingly, that seems to be the opposite of what happens when an orchestra plays at a higher pitch.

        Comment

        • Eine Alpensinfonie
          Host
          • Nov 2010
          • 20572

          #5
          Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post

          ...and (sorry for repeating !) the whole idea that Oboes play A=440 (even though they say they do !) is nonsense, ask a harpist !
          Oh yes we do. We use those electronic gizmos to make sure. The problem is that orchestras tend to get sharper as the concert progresses.

          Comment

          • MrGongGong
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 18357

            #6
            Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
            Oh yes we do. We use those electronic gizmos to make sure. The problem is that orchestras tend to get sharper as the concert progresses.
            If yours is set to A=440 thats fine
            BUT that's not true for many orchestras I know .......

            but

            I don't really think it matters that much......... standardising things isn't always a good idea

            A chronological survey of the opening chords of Beethoven's Eroica Symphony

            Comment

            • BBMmk2
              Late Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 20908

              #7
              With standardisation comes a more stardardised sound. It would be like orchestras, etc, having their own EU. Which I would detest!
              Don’t cry for me
              I go where music was born

              J S Bach 1685-1750

              Comment

              • MrGongGong
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 18357

                #8
                Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
                With standardisation comes a more stardardised sound. It would be like orchestras, etc, having their own EU. Which I would detest!
                But (and don't send this to the basement !) it's things like the EU that will protect regional diversity
                as with cheese and beer

                Comment

                • Vile Consort
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 696

                  #9
                  You mean, for example, that only orchestras based outside Manchester could legally tune to A=443? Or it would not be legal for orchestras outside Holland to play the Eroica between crotchet = 132 and 144? That the sort of thing you had in mind?

                  Comment

                  • Hornspieler
                    Late Member
                    • Sep 2012
                    • 1847

                    #10
                    Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                    If yours is set to A=440 thats fine
                    BUT that's not true for many orchestras I know .......

                    but

                    I don't really think it matters that much......... standardising things isn't always a good idea

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnhlQUBsd6g

                    And how do you know? Do you go round the orchestras, buttonhole the principal oboist and demand that he plays his A into your personal frequency measurement device?

                    Can you find any musician who can truly spot a difference of 2 cycles per second in the mid-range of the audio spectrum?

                    HS

                    Comment

                    • Eine Alpensinfonie
                      Host
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 20572

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Hornspieler View Post

                      Can you find any musician who can truly spot a difference of 2 cycles per second in the mid-range of the audio spectrum?

                      HS

                      Comment

                      • MrGongGong
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 18357

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Hornspieler View Post
                        And how do you know? Do you go round the orchestras, buttonhole the principal oboist and demand that he plays his A into your personal frequency measurement device?

                        Can you find any musician who can truly spot a difference of 2 cycles per second in the mid-range of the audio spectrum?

                        HS

                        I have a friend who is a freelance harpist with many of the UK orchestras ...... I trust her and others

                        And to the second question ................ YES, but it's obviously more pronounced in higher octaves , so its not just a question of a sine wave of 440 VS 442 but also higher partials. So (as i'm sure you know anyway) as most instruments don't play sine waves its quite significant.
                        A quick listen to the Eroica's will show how tuning is widely variable .........
                        Last edited by MrGongGong; 09-10-13, 17:13.

                        Comment

                        • Vile Consort
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 696

                          #13
                          A quick listen to most sopranos will show how widely variable tuning is

                          Comment

                          • MrGongGong
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 18357

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Vile Consort View Post
                            A quick listen to most sopranos will show how widely variable tuning is


                            I was a bit intrigued about the perceptual differences
                            So I made myself a little Audiomulch patch to test using a pair of sine harmonics generators
                            one with a fundamental at 440 and the other at 442
                            SO (as one would imagine) as you introduce higher harmonics the perceived differences become much more marked
                            I'm sure i've read about this Helmholtz ? or maybe Seashore ? (but that was many years ago !)

                            Comment

                            • subcontrabass
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 2780

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Hornspieler View Post
                              clarinets in particular can do nothing to raise their pitch except to blow as much hot breath into the instrument as possible.
                              They can invest in a short barrel. This raises the pitch overall but needs some adjustment to the intonation of individual notes.

                              Comment

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