This music is second rate

[Guest]

Without being Grewish, I'd be interested to know how other MBers might come to such a conclusion? I'm listening to Lyapunov's 1st and 2nd piano concertos, and while they're easy on the ear they seem a little short on originality and flair. That said, I find this kind of music really needs strong advocates and good performances if it's to shine. In other words, a first-rate performance of a second-rate piece can make all the difference.

[salymap]

Then it's a pity there is not another Beecham on the horizon who can make something out of almost nothing


This is the third attempt as it keeps disappearing!!!!!!!!!

Mahlerei, then it's a pity that there is not another Beecham around to make something out of almost nothing.










s a pity there is not another Beecham on the horizon, who could make a wonderful piece out of almost nothing.

[salymap]

Sorry, A terrible mess of a post. It kept going out of sight and my hands weren't even on the keyboard.

[Curalach]

Like Beecham, Neeme Järvi has the ability to make second rate music sound better than it is. I don't know if he has conducted any Lyapunov but I will be surprised if he hasn't.

[Mahlerei]

Curalach

Yes, Jarvi is a good example. I'm listening to his Taneyev Oresteya and 4th Symphony with the Philharmonia. hardly top-notch music but it's very well played.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

it's a pity that there is not another Beecham around to make something out of almost nothing.

Unfortunately, it has become very unfashionable for conductors show the sort initiative Beecham had.

[Stanfordian]

I don't believe that you can make music sound better than what it is. However, I my view much modern music such as Berio and Xenakis needs the finest performances.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I don't believe that you can make music sound better than what it is.

Maybe not, but then again ... maybe. When I play on a really good piano, it makes me into a better player than I really am.

[verismissimo]

All the Telemann I've ever heard. (A mere fraction of the total, but enough.)

[mikerotheatrenestr0y]

This has to be the place to mention Myaskovsky, and the big box of symphonies conducted by Svetlanov, who brings out all their merits.

i would also like to enter a plea in general for more second-rank music to be heard - not second-rate, but second-rank. Jewels look best on a spotless black velvet background. How do I know why Beethoven's better, if I don't hear Spohr, Clementi and Georges Onslow? I am very much afraid that players playing [yet again] an acknowledged "masterpiece" won't put the same effort in that they would if they were playing something they really HADN'T heard before [the Elgar trick].

On the other hand, if the thematic material itself is not memorable [however cleverly manipulated], can performance skills make it so? [I'm thinking of a Rawsthorne string piece I listened to in the Collector's Room, wishing that I liked it, but after it was over I could only say that I saw what he was doing, but couldn't recall any of it - and that is my feeling about Fricker as well, and many other forgotten composers. Occasionally a failing with Glazunov, but I think it DOES depend on the conductor's oomph...]

[Ferretfancy]

I wonder whether comparative age comes into this? i think I used to be more patient in my listening than I am now, and made more effort to appreciate the likes of Rawsthorne, Fricker, Lennox Berkeley and other composers whose thematic interest is elusive, to say the least. Frankly, I find less time for the worthy and innocuous nowadays, for me at 75 life is too short. Perhaps it's not too late, and there are composers that others find boring that I'm still willing to give some time to, Rubbra for example.
Where new contemporary works are concerned, heard at BBC SO concerts and the Proms, I'm afraid that so much of it seems like the tired old tricks of the 1960s warmed over, in fact if half a dozen such works were randomly shuffled it would be hard to find any fingerprints which would identify the composers in most cases.There are of course honourable exceptions, but by and large if I leave a concert hall after a new work failing to remember a single clear idea, why should I continue the effort?

It's true that great conductors like Beecham could find the wit and charm of lesser lights, but if any conductor today decided to to try, they would find that the sheer economics of concert giving would defeat them, but that's another story.

[MrGongGong]

I don't believe that you can make music sound better than what it is. However, I my view much modern music such as Berio and Xenakis needs the finest performances.

I think this touches on what I would think of as "fragility". Some music is very "fragile" it will only be effective if it is performed in a very careful and "intelligent" way , examples of this (for me) would be music by Alvin Lucier, Christian Wolff, Feldman or Ligeti.
other music is much more robust and can stand less careful treatment...........

[Ferretfancy]

MrGongGong,

Just in case you have seen my last comment, I think Ligeti is fascinating!
Ferret

[Suffolkcoastal]

Let us not forget that not every work by every great composers is necessarily 'first rate', even though there is a tendency in some composer's cases to treat every work as if it's a masterpiece. Equally some composers generally regarded as being of a 'lower' rank are capable of producing some 'first rate' works but which they are often not given credit for. In the last year I've become acquainted with the symphonic output of Kalliwoda (I'd previously only known the 1st symphony). His 3rd and 4th symphonies in particular seem to me to be amongst the finest symphonies written between 1820 and 1850 and should be in the repetoire of major orchestras, yet because Kalliwoda isn't considered among the 'great' composers these works regardless of their quality are simply ignored, except by enterprising record companies (in this case CPC).

[Ferretfancy]

Suffolkcoastal

Whereas an enterprising record company can record Kalliwoda, his symphonies are still going to be ignored by major orchestras, simply because of the preparation involved, leading to performances which audiences will be reluctant to attend. If you take a look at the programmes of major orchestras, there are swathes of music by really well known composers that is rarely heard in the concert hall but does well on disc.
For example, we still hear Brahms symphonies from time to time, but his other orchestral works such as the Serenades are ignored, as is the Double Concerto. I've almost given up waiting for live performances of the Debussy Images, the Martyrdom of Sebastian, or the Nocturnes, although they were once popular and still are on CD
It's almost as if there is a completely different repertory for orchestras when they are not in the recording studio.