Old trumpets

[Dave2002]

Alison Balsom's performance at the Latitude Festival, as shown on the Andrew Marr show this morning, was clearly imperfect in a few ways. However, seeing the instrument she was playing on, which appeared to have no valves or keys at all, this seems to have been a rather remarkable achievement. Comments from brass players?

We know that she can play well on more modern instruments.

[MrGongGong]

Alison Balsom's performance at the Latitude Festival, as shown on the Andrew Marr show this morning, was clearly imperfect in a few ways. However, seeing the instrument she was playing on, which appeared to have no valves or keys at all, this seems to have been a rather remarkable achievement. Comments from brass players?

We know that she can play well on more modern instruments.

"Imperfect" ?
Surely you aren't making the assumption that history is a process of improvement ?

[Pabmusic]

I didn't see the programme, but I've seen the blurb on the internet and she's playing a natural trumpet (I can't tell in what pitch it is - F, E-flat, B-flat or C would be common). Trumpets didn't acquire any sort of valves until almost the 19th century. Haydn's concerto, which was for a trumpet with keys a little like a clarinet, was the first (I believe) for a non-natural trumpet. Otherwise, much of the info given by Hornspieler in his excellent thread on the horn is relevant to the trumpet. (Except that, because the horn uses a higher portion of the harmonic series, the 'natural' notes are closer together, so that mis-pitching is easier.)

[pastoralguy]

Bugger the music - what was she wearing...?

[Tony Halstead]

Re Pabmusic message #3:

so that mis-pitching is easier.)

Nothing is 'easy' on the horn.
I'd prefer to turn your statement around, to say
"correct pitching is more difficult" ( than on the trumpet.
Also, what you say about valves ( 'almost the 19th century') needs a bit of correction in that the valve was invented as late as the 2nd decade of the 19th century, but didn't really 'catch on' until the 1830s/ 1840s ( although a visionary such as Schubert was writing for the early 2-valved horn in the mid-1820s in such works as the song 'Auf dem Strom' and the male chorus plus horn quartet that is 'Nachtgesang im Walde'.

[LeMartinPecheur]

...although a visionary such as Schubert was writing for the early 2-valved horn in the mid-1820s in such works as the song 'Auf dem Strom' and the male chorus plus horn quartet that is 'Nachtgesang im Walde'.

Waldhorn: very many thanks for that insight - my estimation of Schubert goes up another few notches...not that it was in any great need of a boost.

[Hornspieler]

Re Pabmusic message #3:

Nothing is 'easy' on the horn.
I'd prefer to turn your statement around, to say
"correct pitching is more difficult" ( than on the trumpet.
Also, what you say about valves ( 'almost the 19th century') needs a bit of correction in that the valve was invented as late as the 2nd decade of the 19th century, but didn't really 'catch on' until the 1830s/ 1840s ( although a visionary such as Schubert was writing for the early 2-valved horn in the mid-1820s in such works as the song 'Auf dem Strom' and the male chorus plus horn quartet that is 'Nachtgesang im Walde'.

Waldhorn. Where have you been, old chap? Everyone, including myself, has been awaiting your knowledge of the history of the horn's development with eager anticipation.

Do post a few gems on the other thread in "Talking About Music" There seems to be tremendous interest among our fellow message boarders.

HS

[Tony Halstead]

Waldhorn. Where have you been, old chap? Everyone, including myself, has been awaiting your knowledge of the history of the horn's development with eager anticipation.

Do post a few gems on the other thread in "Talking About Music" There seems to be tremendous interest among our fellow message boarders.

HS

But the whole topic has been covered so exhaustively that I don't think I can add anything to it at all!

[Dave2002]

I didn't see the programme, but I've seen the blurb on the internet and she's playing a natural trumpet (I can't tell in what pitch it is - F, E-flat, B-flat or C would be common). Trumpets didn't acquire any sort of valves until almost the 19th century. Haydn's concerto, which was for a trumpet with keys a little like a clarinet, was the first (I believe) for a non-natural trumpet. Otherwise, much of the info given by Hornspieler in his excellent thread on the horn is relevant to the trumpet. (Except that, because the horn uses a higher portion of the harmonic series, the 'natural' notes are closer together, so that mis-pitching is easier.)

I hadn't recollected that the trumpet only started to be developed into the more modern instruments around 1800. It's years since I read up about this kind of thing. Alison was playing Purcell, but it sounded elaborate enough. Presumably pieces such as Bach's Brandenburg Concerto 2 would have been played without valves or keys then, in which case it seems to me remarkable that (a) they got to be written, and (b) that players of the time would have played them. I saw and heard Handel's Messiah played on natural trumpets, but I don't think there's anything which is as rapid as Brandenburg 2 in that. The performance I heard was fine - by Crispian Steele-Perkins IIRC.

[Pabmusic]

Re Pabmusic message #3:

Nothing is 'easy' on the horn....

I acknowledge this in all humility.

You are absolutely right about valves, but I didn't want to get too pedantic in describing any mechanism for producing the extra notes. The trouble is that Anton Weidinger's keyed trumpet is from the 1790s (Haydn's concerto is 1796). The keys were more like a clarinet (I said this in fact), so they weren't actually 'valves'. That's the point at which I attempted to avoid pedantry.

[Pabmusic]

I hadn't recollected that the trumpet only started to be developed into the more modern instruments around 1800. It's years since I read up about this kind of thing. Alison was playing Purcell, but it sounded elaborate enough. Presumably pieces such as Bach's Brandenburg Concerto 2 would have been played without valves or keys then, in which case it seems to me remarkable that (a) they got to be written, and (b) that players of the time would have played them. I saw and heard Handel's Messiah played on natural trumpets, but I don't think there's anything which is as rapid as Brandenburg 2 in that. The performance I heard was fine - by Crispian Steele-Perkins IIRC.

Yes, the art of baroque trumpet playing died after the first half of the 18th century (basically, it's about exploiting the upper harmonics, just as the horn does still). When Mozart re-scored Messiah, he deliberately avoided the baroque trumpet in "The trumpet shall sound" and wrote a simpler part, divided between horns and trumpets. I've heard that version performed, but with a baroque trumpet reinstated, because it sounds so much better.

Here's a standard early trumpet (interesting passage about technique):

http://norwichnaturaltrumpets.wordpress.com/natural-or-baroque-trumpets/

And here's an early 20th-century coiled trumpet for the Brandenburg 2 (interesting article with some sample recordings):

http://abel.hive.no/trompet/holy/

[BBMmk2]

Has anybody here actually played a natural trumpet at all? I've only played modern brass instruments.

NB I actually played an BBb Bass once, from circa 1915!

[salymap]

Horns, Trumpets, what's the next instrument you'd like to receive an analytical review?

[Hornspieler]

Horns, Trumpets, what's the next instrument you'd like to receive an analytical review?

Banjos

Q: What's the difference between chopping up an onion and chopping up a Banjo?

A: You don't cry when you're chopping up a Banjo!

Sorry, Sally - I couldn't resist it.

HS

[BBMmk2]

Nice one, HS!! But has anyone played a trumpet that has the valves that our continental colleagues play? How is it, compared to the ones we play?