Haydn's early symphonies

[Guest]

Think it is about time I widened my knowledge of Haydn’s symphonies.

In Sony’s 37-CD box containing all 108 symphonies of Haydn (I thought there were ONLY 104 of them!), played by the Stuttgarter Kammerorchester under Dennis Russell Davies, I thought I’d start with the early No 6, so called “Morning”.

There is a danger for me of sometimes playing the well-known works by composers and unintentionally ignoring other less well-known works, not necessarily minor, insignificant ones, just ones that haven’t caught the public’s attention.

Well, No 6 is a delight, containing, to my surprise, a violin solo three bars into the second Adagio movement.

Now, if only I can find out why it is called Morning…

Mario

[salymap]

Mario. All I can find in the old Breitkopf catalogue is that 6 is Le Matin, 7 Le Midi, 8 is Le Soir. I wondered,as they only add up to just over one hour,whether they would be performed together at the appropriate time of day.

[Lion-of-Vienna]

Well, No 6 is a delight, containing, to my surprise, a violin solo three bars into the second Adagio movement.

Now, if only I can find out why it is called Morning…

I only have to listen to the slow introduction of the first movement to see the sunrise in my mind - a wonderful early example of musical scene painting.

Symphonies 6 to 8 were Haydn's first works for his new employer, Prince Esterhazy, and he was obviously out to impress (and succeeded in my opinion).

To avoid the danger of only playing the well known works why not begin with the symphonies that don't have a nickname? There are some wonderful gems that get missed out if you only listen to the named symphonies.

Happy listening.

[Auferstehen2]

Hello there salymap. I must confess to the absolutely beautiful weather here at the moment, a balmy 17C, clear blue sky, brilliant sunshine, just came back from a lovely walk by the seafront – cannot wait to start swimming again when the sea warms up!

Indeed, since my post, I’ve been busy surfing and as usually, you are right, S’s 6, 7 and 8 being called “Morning”, “Midday and “Evening”. I love your idea of performing them at the appropriate time of day!

LoV, I’m going to take you up on your suggestion of avoiding the “named” ones. It’ll stop me from being pre-conditioned (I’ve NEVER considered the oboe to sound like a plucking hen in No 83 for example).

In Haydn’s time, according to Wikipedia (others more knowledgeable than I must decided how accurate this is), if soloists in an orchestra were asked to play solo or difficult passages, they were rewarded financially. Haydn thus was hoping to curry favour with the players by writing solo passages in the three symphonies. The reason for the names of the three consecutive symphonies, is tenuous, to say the least.

Thanks,

Mario

[Roehre]

Mario,
you might be interested how to "tackle" the "problem" of how to listen to 104 + 4 Haydn symphonies.
This has been discussed earlier on these boards: http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...ighlight=haydn

But most importantly: enjoy

[Auferstehen2]

Thanks Roehre for that link,

I honestly did not know about that thread, otherwise I would never have started this one. I'm sorry.

I do like your idea, but may just dip in in a random manner.

Best wishes,

Mario

[Lion-of-Vienna]

With a little time at my disposal I thought that I would address the question of why Auferstehen2’s Haydn box contains 108 symphonies when we all know that the last one, the “London” symphony, is No104.

No105 is actually the Sinfonie Concertante in B Flat for Violin, Oboe, Bassoon, Cello and Orchestra, written in 1792 for Haydn’s second trip to London. In structure this is nothing more nor less than a concerto for 4 soloists. Apparently such pieces were all the rage in London at the time, JC Bach having composed a lot of them. Why this piece should be grouped with the symphonies is a question that defeats me. We would never dream of listing Mozart’s pieces of this type with his symphonies.

Nos 107 and 108 come from the other end of Haydn’s symphonic career. When Mandyczewski made out the current numbering system for the symphonies in 1907 he purposely left out these two works. In the case of 107 (also called Symphony A) he regarded it as a string quartet since it was better known at the time in this form as Op1 No5. In fact the symphony version with wind instruments came first. No108 (Symphony B) was omitted from the list because some early sources list it as a Partita whereas it is little different from a symphony of the period.

No106 provides a different type of problem. In 1907 this was the only Haydn symphony that was lost. It was known only from its incipit in one of Haydn’s catalogues. A single movement answering to the description of the lost symphony was found in the mid 1970s in the Library of Congress in Washington amongst a set of Spanish manuscripts. Here the piece was serving time as the finale of a pasticcio symphony in which the first two movements were the overture to Haydn’s opera L’Incontro Improvviso. The movement was later attributed to be the missing overture to the opera Le Pescatrici and it is generally heard in this guise when Le Pescatrici gets a very rare airing. (The story of Haydn’s opera overtures is complicated. Many of them were physically removed from the opera scores, presumably for concert use and publication, when the operas themselves were regarded as redundant. After order had been restored Le Pescatrici still had no overture.)

At the risk of outstaying my welcome I should also mention two other Haydn symphonies not in the normal list but both included in the appendix to Dorati’s complete recorded cycle. The first is a symphony in E flat that is a version, almost certainly not by Haydn, of Symphony No22 “The Philosopher”. No22 is unique amongst the Haydn symphonies in using two cors anglais instead of oboes in the wind section. These instruments give the work, especially in the opening chorale-like slow movement, a sombre thoughtful quality that must surely explain the symphony’s nickname. The new version not only discards the opening slow movement , thus beginning with the second movement, but provides a new slow movement and, even worse, replaces the cors anglais with flutes.

The other Haydn symphony is actually only half a symphony, the last two movements of a symphony in C for a large orchestra including trumpets and timpani. HC Robbins Landon attributed these movements to be from an early version of Symphony No63 which Haydn later revised with reduced orchestration and with a new minuet and finale. Interestingly the first movement of this piece is also an opera overture, that to Il Mondo della Luna.

Finally, if anyone is still reading, a question of my own. Why does Symphony No53 have four finales?

[MickyD]

I'm glad to see this thread, I'm a huge fan of the early Haydn symphonies!

LoV, to answer your question about Symphony No. 53, I can do no better than quote James Webster's excellent notes included with the admirable (but sadly discontinued) AAM/Hogwood Haydn symphony cycle:

"It has a complex history, which led, again, to different authentic versions. It originally consisted of the opening Vivace (at first without the slow introduction), Andante, Minuet, and a Presto finale adapted from an overture to an unidentified work (Hob.Ia:7), referred to as finale 'B' in Robbins Landon's edition of the symphonies and in the literature. Although the overture is dated 1777, the symphony proper originated c. 1778-9 (there are no authentic sources for this version). Soon thereafter, while the symphony still had this overall form, Haydn added the slow introduction. Around 1780, presumably owing to the disastrous fire at Esterhaza castle on 18 November 1779, which destroyed virtually the entire court musical archives, including this version of No.53, Haydn produced another version, by replacing the original overture-finale with a new one, marked "Capriccio. Moderato", known as 'finale A'. Since the latter represented Haydn's final word and is the only one transmitted by an authentic source, now in the Esterhaza archives, we have programmed it to follow the minuet, but we have included finale 'B' as well, so that the listener may also hear the work in its original guise.The original overture (HobIa:7) deviated in instrumentation (no flute; two bassoons); the flute part in finale 'B' , added later, is of unknown authorship. The first movement in both versions includes an authentic timpani part, even though there are no trumpets, whereas the timpani parts for the minuet and finale in the Esterhazy source is amateurish and is not included in these recordings."

Phew, I think I'll just carry on enjoying the music!

[verismissimo]

Particular favourites for me are the so-called Sturm und Drang symphonies (early-middle period one might say).

And particular affection for No 39.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

No106 provides a different type of problem. In 1907 this was the only Haydn symphony that was lost. It was known only from its incipit in one of Haydn’s catalogues. A single movement answering to the description of the lost symphony was found in the mid 1970s in the Library of Congress in Washington amongst a set of Spanish manuscripts. Here the piece was serving time as the finale of a pasticcio symphony in which the first two movements were the overture to Haydn’s opera L’Incontro Improvviso. The movement was later attributed to be the missing overture to the opera Le Pescatrici and it is generally heard in this guise when Le Pescatrici gets a very rare airing. (The story of Haydn’s opera overtures is complicated. Many of them were physically removed from the opera scores, presumably for concert use and publication, when the operas themselves were regarded as redundant. After order had been restored Le Pescatrici still had no overture.)

Thank you for that. I knew of the other 3 from my Dorati set.

[Lion-of-Vienna]

Thanks MickyD for you reply. It is interesting that, if finale "B" was replaced by finale "A", Haydn thought well enough of the piece to use it again a year or so later in revised form as the first movement of Symphony No 62.

Finale "C" comes from a contemporary French print. HCRL considers it to be unauthentic. Paul Sacher used it as the finale in a 1954 recording with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra (available on Naxos).

Finale "D" is genuine Haydn. The autograph was found in Russia where it had the title "Finale". An Italian manuscript uses it as the finale to No 53. Haydn later published the work as an overture (H Ia 4).

(Information from Robbins Landon's BBC Music Guide on the Haydn Symphonies).

All I can say in addition is that it must have been chaos at Esterhaza in the period after the fire!

[Roehre]

.... I can do no better than quote James Webster's excellent notes included with the admirable (but sadly discontinued) AAM/Hogwood Haydn symphony cycle

MickyD, thanks for this. It illustrates as well what because of the discontinuation of the cycle we all miss out on background information re the Haydn symphonies. The AAM/Hogwood/Mozart-symphonies had a brilliant spin-off in the publication of Neal Zaslaw's excellent book on these symphonies. It is based on the research done for these HIPerformed works. Similar research was under way, and AFAIK a similar book planned, for this Haydn-project. But the whole project was curtailed.

[salymap]

Ilove all the ones i know and am interested in that strange one that seems to end, everyone applaudes,it starts up again. I have a CD of it somewhere, played with all the interruptions. Is it 89,90, 98? I can't find my CD at the moment.

[Lion-of-Vienna]

Ilove all the ones i know and am interested in that strange one that seems to end, everyone applaudes,it starts up again.

It was at the end of No90. That was a favourite trick of Haydn's. He used the ploy in even more outrageous fashion at the end of the "Joke" Quartet Op33 No2 when he bet a colleague that he could get the audience applauding before end of the piece.